Feb. 29, 2024
William Clarke retrospective, part 2, with Paul Barry
Paul Barry joins me again on episode 105, for another look at the life and career of the great William Clarke.
Paul has now released his biography: Blowin’ Like Hell: The William Clarke Story, writing it from insights he gained from Bill’s wife Jeanette, and Bill's children, and the musicians who played with him, as well as many others.
Bill dedicated his life from the age of sixteen to become the bluesman he dreamed he could be, and he worked extremely hard at it. He honed his craft from woodshedding at home, attending the blues clubs of LA, becoming the protege of George Smith, and pushing himself hard to create his unique voice both vocally and especially on the diatonic and chromatic harmonica. All this despite his personal demons, to become one of the leading players of his generation.
Links:
Paul’s website:
https://www.paulbarryblues.com/
Where to buy the biography:
https://www.paulbarryblues.com/william-clarke.html
Blues Blast magazine review of the William Clarke book:
https://www.bluesblastmagazine.com/issue-18-7-february-15-2024/?fbclid=IwAR3lctX2K7JrotYoAczEp_JE_rIktqg6QejnVrSMR52OYIvKiEM-GeyJS9Q
William Clarke Remembered Facebook Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/171827912850208/
The first William Clarke retrospective with Paul:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com/william-clarke-retrospective-with-paul-barry/
Videos:
Bill playing Lollipop Mama at the San Fran Blues Festival in 1991:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrXrsmUWAGM
Interview with Bill, and concert footage from Byron Bay festival in Australia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfgWsyKvC3o
Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com
Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB
Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ
Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
01:32 - This is a second interview with Paul, after the first one about William (Bill) Clarke was released in June 2022
01:45 - Paul has now released his biography about Bill Clarke
02:15 - I’ve read the book recently and it’s a great achievement and has received lots of good reviews and comments from people
02:29 - Where people can obtain the book
03:23 - Was working on a harmonica instruction book before Bill died. Paul decided to write a biography instead, as lots of instructional material already available
03:44 - Bill died in 1996, before the internet became widely used, and he probably isn’t as well known as he deserves to be
04:58 - Looking into Bill’s life story when writing the book, saw the humble beginnings that he came from, to become the great bluesman he became
05:29 - How Paul approached writing the biography, and what research did he conduct
05:52 - Bill’s wife Jeanette was a great help in providing material for the book, as were his children and many of the musicians he performed with
06:44 - The pressure Paul felt in making sure the biography did justice to Bill
07:00 - Wife Jeanette maintains the Facebook page: William Clarke Remembered
07:31 - Paul wrote the book in his spare time, on top of his job and being a part-time musician
08:47 - What Paul learnt about Bill, and playing the harmonica, from writing the biography, including how hard he worked
10:22 - Torn between being a family man and being the best musician he could be
10:46 - Bill would practice back in the hotel room after the gig
11:36 - Learned from the blues harmonica greats early on in his development, but then was keen to forge his own sound
11:58 - Bill also liked to listen to organ players, saxophonists and swing jazz and learn licks from those
12:54 - Bill played chromatic in the middle of third position blues and the jazz approach on chromatic from the Toots Thielemans school of playing
13:43 - George Smith showed Bill how to play chromatic initially, especially the octaves
14:21 - Bill learnt by ear, didn’t work on music theory
15:14 - Bill’s later albums became more sophisticated as he developed his playing skills
16:09 - Was determined to forge his own sound
16:30 - Was also a great diatonic player, which he started out on when he took up harmonica
17:19 - Played a lot of octaves on diatonic, so approached it in a similar way to his chromatic playing at times
17:56 - Proportion of how much third position he played on diatonic versus second position (and others)
18:10 - Most of his chromatic playing is third position
18:50 - Was always keen to entertain the audience with stage antics and to give 100% to entertain the crowd, things he learnt from George Smith
20:10 - Live video of Bill playing Lollipop Man is a great example of Bill’s showmanship
20:55 - Every performance from Bill was different, nothing was scripted, he played and did what he felt like at the time
21:19 - Kept the band on his toes by not telling them which song was coming next, or taking extended solos, etc.
22:29 - Didn’t use a set-list, and the lesson that can teach us to be more spontaneous during live performance
24:11 - Touring and playing every night no doubt helps tighten up the band for such spontaneity
24:27 - Bill’s band didn’t practise, because they had gigs every night and also Bill wanted that freshen when recording in the studio
25:42 - I committed on the podcast to lie down during a solo on my next gig as per Bill and George antics, and Paul wants photographic evidence
25:57 - Bill also picked up a lot of the stagecraft in the LA blues clubs
26:26 - People often remember the visual antics over your wonderful harmonica playing
27:07 - Worked hard mixing the songs in the studio, to the extent that Bruce Iglauer gave him free reign to mix his own Alligator albums
28:35 - How Bill approached recording in the studio
29:31 - Wrote lots of his own songs, to bring a modern take on blues
30:52 - Sang from the beginning, but worked hard at it and it improved as his career developed
33:13 - Bill’s struggle with alcohol, and how he eventually overcame it
34:59 - May have started drinking to overcome his shyness for when performing music
36:04 - Performed better than ever when he quit drinking
37:19 - Wife Jeanette provided fantastic support to Bill during his struggle with alcohol
39:02 - Felt lonely when on the road
39:48 - Was planning to tour less, spend more time at home and give harmonica lessons before he died
40:30 - Did his first tour alongside George Smith in 1983, but George died later that year
41:53 - Bill played with George around LA from 1977-1983
42:23 - Bill quit his day job in 1986 to go full-time as a musician and toured extensively through the US and Europe, which was often hard going on the road
44:09 - Signed with Alligator records in 1989, with the Blowin’ Like Hell album recorded before he signed with Alligator, but released on that label
45:04 - Blowin’ Like Hell song is Bill’s anthem, and he would often perform 20 minute versions live, and the biography partly uses the song name
45:45 - Other great songs from the Blowin’ Like Hell album
47:18 - Blues Blast magazine said Blowin’ Like Hell album was the best harmonica album of the last twenty years
47:45 - Won three WC Handy awards for the Blowin’ Like Hell album, including best instrumentalist for harmonica
48:01 - Recorded three more albums on Alligator, with Paul thinking the four albums with Alligator are his best work, although there are other great earlier albums
49:04 - Groove Time album is a favourite of mine
49:34 - Had 18 top LA musicians with him on Groove Time album, and the great LA blues scene
50:19 - LA Blues scene had more of a jazz and swing influence than the Chicago scene
51:03 - Final album was The Hard Way, released in 1996
51:48 - Bill’s funeral was well attended by his fans, who played his music
52:12 - Paul was a pallbearer for Bill
52:46 - Had an open casket where he was wearing sunglasses and had a Hering harmonica in his top pocket out of respect to the people of Brazil, who he admired
53:31 - George Smith’s widow sang in the choir at the funeral
53:56 - Bruce Iglauer read a eulogy at the funeral
54:23 - Last section of the biography contains comments from various harmonica players and others, about Bill’s legacy to blues music and harmonica, and Paul’s view on this
55:54 - Paul’s favourite songs of Bills
56:19 - Wife Jeanette released some albums after he died, from some early recordings
57:17 - Live In Germany is a great live album to listen to, and an extended version being released this year (2024)
57:45 - Does Paul have any plans to write any more books?
WEBVTT
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Paul Barry joins me again on episode 105 for another look at the life and career of the great William Clarke.
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Paul has now released his biography, Blowing Like Hell, The William Clarke Story, writing it from insights he has gained from Bill's wife, Jeanette, and Bill's children and the musicians who played with him, as well as many others.
00:00:19.841 --> 00:00:26.611
Bill dedicated his life from the age of 16 to become the bluesman he dreamed he could be and he worked extremely hard at it.
00:00:27.132 --> 00:00:39.429
He honed his craft from woodshedding at home, attending the blues clubs of LA, becoming the protege of George Smith and pushing himself hard to create his unique voice both vocally and especially on the diatonic and chromatic harmonica.
00:00:40.030 --> 00:00:44.878
All this despite his personal demons to become one of the leading players of his generation.
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This podcast is sponsored by Seidel Harmonicas.
00:00:48.984 --> 00:00:58.322
Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas.
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Hello Paul Barry and welcome back to the podcast.
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Hi, Neil.
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Nice to hear your voice again.
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Thanks for having me back.
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No, it's a pleasure.
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We last talked on, well, the last interview we did was about Bill Clark, which was released in June 2022, episode 64.
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So we're back to talk more about Bill and more to the point about the book that you've managed to release since that time.
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So congratulations on that.
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Tell us about the book.
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Yeah, thanks, Neil.
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It was quite a long project, about two and a half year project, but I finally released the last one.
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went live last December of this past year so so far things have been going well with it and it's been well received just real happy to get it done and just just wanted to bring Bill's music and him as a person to light for more people I think the book accomplished that
00:02:15.081 --> 00:02:29.116
definitely yeah I've read the book myself just recently and it's a fantastic achievement so well done I've seen lots of good press about it and you know lots of people saying nice things about it as well so yeah definitely recommend people go and buy that and and and have a read.
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So just before we start talking about that, where can people get hold of it?
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They can get hold of it at, I have some retail outlets, Rock and Ron's Music, Blue Beat Records, Bear Records in Europe is going to be picking it up, Alligator Records, and also on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, some other online retailers like that will have that available as well too as an e-book and also as a printed copy.
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Yeah, fantastic.
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So again, congratulations.
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I'm always very envious of people who managed to write a book about harmonica and about blues so I hope to do the same myself one day but tell us about the process then I remember we talked about in the first interview that you were planning on writing an instructional book to Bill and that's kind of where the idea was born
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Yeah, well, thanks, Neil.
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I hope you write a book someday.
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It's a great accomplishment.
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It's a lot of work, but I'm glad I was able to accomplish that.
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But before Bill died, he and I were working on a harmonic instruction book.
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A few years back, I decided to try to pick it up again and see if I could finish it.
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And then I thought, there's a lot of instruction material out there online and a lot of books and material.
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I thought it'd be more interesting to look at his life story and write about him as the person he was and the musician he was because I think he died in 1996 so that was before really before the internet age kicked in and I don't think he's as widely known as he should be and that was part of the mindset I had for doing the book just to bring him his music into light for a lot of people especially harmonica players that would really appreciate hearing his music and hearing about the man himself
00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:20.286
definitely yeah and it's very inspiring to talk about someone like Billy I'm a massive admirer of him he's a fantastic player one of the best for sure and certainly one of the best modern players.
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So, yeah, you're bringing that to life and really showing how he went about it as well is really key, wasn't it, about how he applied himself so much, you know, and the challenges he went through.
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And so, yeah, it's a really fascinating read and the tough road to becoming a blues musician.
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Yeah, it sure was.
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And when I started out doing the book, I knew Bill.
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I met Bill in 1983 when he came to Minnesota.
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My band opened up for him.
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He was with George Smith, and he and I became good friends, and I lived with him in 1985 out in California for a little while.
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When I started doing the book I didn't realize his life story and when I started going back and recreating his life story it was just a fascinating story and he really came up from pretty tough surroundings and his story is really inspirational and he had a lot of ups and downs in his career but he managed to overcome a lot of that and became like you said one of the greatest players of his generation.
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The book was a lot more than I expected it to be, but it's such a great story.
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I was glad to accomplish that.
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Yeah, and so the challenge is writing a book.
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How did you go about that?
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How did you do your research on Bill?
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I see you did quite a lot of interviews, didn't you?
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You list them in the back.
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So, yeah, tell us about that.
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So it's basically, you're recreating someone's story from when they were born.
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And unfortunately, when I wrote this, Bill wasn't around.
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So I had to dig back.
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His wife, Jeanette, was a big source of information for me.
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And just being a musician myself, I thought it's really fascinating to talk to musicians that played with him and the people that knew him early on and just to see how his life story evolved.
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And so, like you said, I did a lot of interviews with family members as daughter Gina and his son Willie and friends of his and his wife Jeanette was a big source and a lot of musicians that played and recorded with Bill so I really recreated his whole life and found out a lot about kind of a hardscrabble youth that he had and it was just really an interesting story but it was just going back and digging through articles that people had written about him interviews he had done and myself knowing him as a person but just those interviews were great source of information for my book.
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Yeah, and it must be quite daunting in a way to, you know, with Jeanette being his wife, you know, and his family, his children, to write a book.
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You must feel the pressure to make it good, right?
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Yeah, that's a good point.
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I mean, Jeanette was so supportive.
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She's such a great person.
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There's a great website out there, William Clark Remembered, and she has over 4,000 members, and she's always kept Bill's memory and music alive with that website.
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Out of my love for her and Bill, I wanted to make sure this book was done right And so there is that pressure that you want to do the book as well as you possibly can.
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So it was a lot of long nights, a lot of weekends.
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And I'm not a writer by trade, but I really put my heart and soul into it and wanted to make it as good as possible for Bill.
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Yeah, and you got a day job, right?
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So you were doing this in your spare time?
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That's correct.
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And also part-time musician.
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¶¶
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I've got a lot of things on my plate, but this kind of took precedence just because he's been gone for quite a long time and I just talked to other harmonica players.
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Some players don't know who he is, which is a crying shame, so I just want to make sure to get his name out there and his music out there so others can appreciate the genius of his music and the type of person he was.
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So, I mean, it's a bit like, you know, with my podcast interviews, I, you know, I research my person, do a sort of profile on each one.
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But that's much probably more light touch when you're going into the depth of writing a whole book about somebody.
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So I feel I learn so much about every episode I do when I interview these different people on the podcast.
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But so having written a book about Bill, what do you think you learned from him about playing the harmonica and music?
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One thing I really learned, I knew from Bill, from living with him and just as a person, how hard a worker was, but how hard a worker he was, I should say.
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Just going back and talking to musicians that he worked with and talking to Jeanette and just recreating his life story.
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It was just from the age of 16 when he first picked up a harmonica, his sole purpose in life was to become a bluesman and he put his heart and soul into it and worked extremely hard.
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But just the level of The dedication he had to being as good as he could be just was really impressive and one time he told me that he would get upset when people would say that he's got God-given talent because he told me that I worked extremely hard to get to where I am and that's what drove me and that's what made me the type of player I am.
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So he was, I've never seen anybody work to the level that he did to be the type of musician he turned out to be.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, you talk in the book about how he would, you know, he would work his day job, which, you know, he quit later on.
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We'll get on to that.
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But so he would work his day job and he would get home and he would start and then he would sort of practice four or five hours a night and sort of go into the bathroom and, you know, with a nice reverb in the bathroom and he would sort of practice all through the night and really, you know, really work hard on those chops.
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Yeah, that's how it was.
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I remember when I lived with him, that's the very thing that he would do.
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And he was such a family man, too.
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So he was kind of torn between the family and being as good his musician as he could.
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So he did whatever he could to practice.
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I mean, there's a part in the book where one of the guys is talking about him practicing at work during his break.
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So he was just 100% dedicated to music, and it really showed by the amount of work that he put into his music.
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And a lot of the guys told me that played with him is when they'd go back to the hotel room after their gig is he would tell them that there's still time to practice, that the day is not over.
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and they'd hear him in his hotel room practicing at night after the gig.
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So he was 100% dedicated, and I think it really shows in the level of musicianship and the music that he put out over his career.
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Definitely, that's good to hear.
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When you know something didn't go quite right in the gig, that's the time to go home and practice that little thing.
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Exactly right, Neil.
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Yeah, and so did you get insights into what he would practice?
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I know he was a massive listener, wasn't he?
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He listened to lots of swing music and you know horns and organ trios and so he would listen to them and try and emulate those do you know what sort of things specifically he was working on in his practice?
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I know early on you know he was pretty immersed in the Chicago blues and he liked for example you know Big Walter and Junior Wells and of course Little Walter and then as he got more advanced on the instrument well he told me I think I mentioned this in the book too that he said you learn those songs from other harmonica players and then you put those away and then you create your own sound so he was very open to listening to all types of music especially b3 organ players and and tenor saxophone players and like you said big band swing music soul jazz he loved all that stuff one of the things that he really did was listen so he would i know some uh some guys have played with him would tell me that he'd go in his hotel room after after a gig and he'd be listening to tenor saxophone players and trying to play those those phrases that they that he would be hearing and the next night on the gig he would be playing those same phrases that he had heard the night before so i think one thing i really learned is just keep an open mind of all types of instruments and try to create those into your own original sound
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yeah definitely i think um you know quite often in the good players it's that transition early on you work on you know on the great harmonica players and classic players and you work on those and then you sort of branch out to others but he he did that to a uh you know a really extreme degree didn't he and he really did work on those and his chromatic playing is you know is astonishing we We touched on it a little bit in the first interview, where you get a lot of guys playing third position blues chromatic, and then you've got the other side, which is where you've kind of got the full-on jazz, kind of like Toots Thielmans and that style of jazz.
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But he's in the sort of middle of that, isn't he, where he's kind of playing lots of third position blues chromatic, but it doesn't sound like the usual third chromatic.
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It's really sort of in the middle of that kind of really jazzy chromatic playing and the sort of third position blues playing.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, that's exactly right.
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I had a conversation with Dennis Groenling the other day and asked him about that.
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He said Bill pretty much stuck in third position, but he was obviously going in that jazz vein, but he still kept that kind of blues playing in his soul, but he was definitely branching out into the jazz playing.
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And of course, when he started out, George Smith was really the person that showed him how to play those octaves and how to really play blues harmonica in third position.
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And Bill was just taking it a little bit further by going more in that jazz vein with some of his some of his playing so he definitely was stepping out of the traditional blues playing that we normally hear with blues players playing chromatic
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definitely yeah much more sophisticated and do you know if he you know was he sort of practicing over jazz changes and was he was he going was he practicing that way
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as far as i know he was not he was he didn't know how to read music and i i know one one of the players john marks told me that after one of their gigs that he had he had told bill hey bill you played i can't remember what it was something like a 13th chord or something like that.
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And Bill said, I did.
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Wow.
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You know, so he, I don't think in his mind, he actually knew maybe the musical theory part of it, but he certainly could hear it.
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And he was playing those types of things.
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And I know Barry Levinson told me that he could see Bill moving towards more of that soul jazz where songs like Sugar and things like Chittin' Con Carney, songs like that, where you play over the changes, he could see Bill doing that.
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So I think Bill was moving in that direction.
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Maybe he didn't know the theory, but in his head, he knew what it no
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definitely yeah and it shows you know again he worked really hard on that and picking them up by ear and in his later albums you know for example his last album The Hard Way he does some great sophisticated chromatic songs swing songs and we talked about The Boss in the first interview and that's probably his real classic one on chromatic but he does a few on the album as well he does Molten Swing which is also an incredible swinging sophisticated song and Walking as well so two really high level chromatic songs, though, which are in this kind of swing band.
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Yeah, exactly right, Neil.
00:15:58.087 --> 00:16:03.371
You could see with every album that he did for Alligator, he was kind of getting more into that vein.
00:16:03.552 --> 00:16:06.115
It's just fascinating.
00:16:06.195 --> 00:16:17.203
I've always thought about what would Bill be doing now with his music because he was definitely moving it forward and not willing to stand pat and recreate songs that have been done before.
00:16:17.245 --> 00:16:19.687
Like he said, there's already been a Little Walter.
00:16:20.106 --> 00:16:22.688
We don't need another Little Walter as great as he was.
00:16:23.629 --> 00:16:29.876
That's his mindset that I'm going to be William clark and i'm going to create my own music and be original and that's exactly what he did
00:16:30.477 --> 00:17:03.352
but not forgetting he's also a great diatonic player as well and he did you know he definitely played the two you know and even on these later albums when he was really into this kind of swing jazz approach that he was taking there's always diatonic songs you know on these albums like the last album i just mentioned uh evil is a song which you know has diatonic so there's plenty of diatonic as well isn't there mixed in he definitely wanted to do both
00:17:03.933 --> 00:17:19.186
oh right exactly he was a tremendous diatonic player and and before he met george smith he pretty much was strictly diatonic and george really guided him on the chromatic but yeah bill's a terrific diatonic player as well there's no doubt about that
00:17:19.626 --> 00:17:31.230
yeah and you can hear some of the same infants you can hear him doing quite a lot of octaves on the diatonic when he's playing and he's you know that sort of approach where he's playing the the the octaves on the on the chromatic he's putting some of that onto the Daytona.
00:17:43.874 --> 00:18:02.061
Yeah, he sure does, and you can tell when Bill's playing third position on the diatonic, it's pretty close to sound like a chromatic, so he's getting those big fat octaves and chords, and just the ferocity of his approach is very similar to what he did on the chromatic.
00:18:02.864 --> 00:18:09.133
You can definitely see a lot of similarities there, but he was very excellent on both the chromatic and the diatonic.
00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:10.009
Yeah.
00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:14.034
And when he's playing chromatic, was he playing, you know, third position most of the time?
00:18:14.074 --> 00:18:20.940
Was he playing other, not necessarily call them positions on the chromatic, but, you know, is he, say, playing in the key of G on a C harmonica and things like that?
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.842
Or was he playing more or less always third position on the chromatic?
00:18:24.262 --> 00:18:27.625
Yeah, that's a good question because I was wondering about that myself.
00:18:27.806 --> 00:18:33.951
On the earlier things, you can tell it's third position, like on Tribute to George Smith and, you know, things like that.
00:18:33.990 --> 00:18:36.553
And I asked Dennis Gruenling about that.
00:18:36.673 --> 00:18:39.695
He said he pretty much, that Bill's pretty much stuck to third position.
00:18:39.695 --> 00:18:50.115
But I think maybe as time was going on, maybe he would have looked at some different positions on the chromatic, but I think it was mainly third position on the chromatic.
00:18:50.736 --> 00:18:54.502
So another thing he was really hot on was his performance.
00:18:54.603 --> 00:18:59.112
And you talk about in the book how he was a protégé of George Smith.
00:18:59.192 --> 00:18:59.893
He met George.
00:19:00.513 --> 00:19:02.316
And then, you know, he showed him the ropes.
00:19:02.336 --> 00:19:04.917
But George was really into the performances, right?
00:19:04.938 --> 00:19:06.618
He would do the sort of tricks on stage.
00:19:06.638 --> 00:19:09.382
He would walk along tables, lie down while playing.
00:19:09.422 --> 00:19:14.286
And so this entertainment factor was a big thing that Bill really picked up as well, yeah?
00:19:14.685 --> 00:19:16.087
Yeah, it sure was, Neil.
00:19:16.208 --> 00:19:19.329
And also, you can see that with Rod Piazza, too.
00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:21.652
I mean, they both came up under George Smith.
00:19:21.853 --> 00:19:24.494
Rod was with George first, and then Bill came along.
00:19:24.934 --> 00:19:30.119
Yeah, in the book, I talk about that a little bit, how great an entertainer George was.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:39.189
And Bill, he said George necessarily didn't show me a lot of things, but I would watch him night after night and see how he interacted with the crowd, how he'd entertain.
00:19:39.609 --> 00:19:47.337
He said there could be two people, there could be 2,000 people, that George would give it 100% all the time, and that's something that he really took to heart.
00:19:47.698 --> 00:19:58.690
But definitely, that was a big part of Bill's show, was that he wanted to give the crowd 100% every night, and the performance, the entertainment value outside of the great music was always there.
00:19:59.090 --> 00:20:06.298
Yeah, and I think, again, that's a lesson for a lot of harmonica players listening, myself included, that you've got to really push that entertainment value right.
00:20:06.337 --> 00:20:09.902
There's lots of these little things you can do to entertain the crowd.
00:20:09.961 --> 00:20:16.849
And you sent me a great video of Bill playing Lollipop Mama in 1991 in San Francisco Blues Festival.
00:20:17.269 --> 00:20:19.392
And it's a fantastic example of that.
00:20:19.792 --> 00:20:22.996
The guy introduces him, and I presume it's his first song.
00:20:23.036 --> 00:20:27.181
He walks on and straight away, his presence is there right away.
00:20:27.221 --> 00:20:29.403
Obviously, he's a big guy, but not just that.
00:20:29.423 --> 00:20:43.161
He comes in with the solo and then he does the sort of tricks with lots of interaction with the band and he gets down on his knees at one point but you can really see him pushing that and there's lots of hand gestures and all that great stuff it's a really good example of that
00:20:43.554 --> 00:20:44.535
It is, Neil.
00:20:44.555 --> 00:20:45.796
That's one of my favorite cuts.
00:20:45.855 --> 00:20:47.958
I'm glad you had the chance to look at that.
00:20:48.077 --> 00:20:50.119
It gives me chills every time I look at it.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.741
But that's how Bill was live.
00:20:52.801 --> 00:20:54.723
It was always exciting.
00:20:54.763 --> 00:20:59.106
You could see him two nights in a row and you'd see a totally different show the second night.
00:20:59.228 --> 00:21:00.248
And that's how he was.
00:21:00.328 --> 00:21:02.891
Nothing was scripted or planned out.
00:21:02.931 --> 00:21:04.231
It was just how he felt.
00:21:04.952 --> 00:21:07.414
And he just gave it 100% every night.
00:21:07.494 --> 00:21:12.098
And it was like, come along for the ride because I'm going to take you for a great ride.
00:21:12.358 --> 00:21:18.740
And that's what he did all the time but yeah he was a phenomenal entertainer as well as being a great musician
00:21:19.233 --> 00:21:24.519
Yeah, and you talk about this in the book, about how he keeps the band on his toes, like they didn't know what he was going to do.
00:21:24.538 --> 00:21:34.186
He would just call a song right, or he would do extended solos, and he would ask for sort of, you know, four-bar breaks where he just played some solo harmonica, and then they'd come back in.
00:21:34.207 --> 00:21:40.511
So this kind of interaction with the band had to be watching him closely and have that spontaneous approach to his playing.
00:21:40.952 --> 00:21:41.673
Yeah, it was.
00:21:41.773 --> 00:21:44.175
It was just always so fun to watch him.
00:21:44.215 --> 00:21:56.347
And talking to the guys, that interview for the book, the guys that played with him, they said they wouldn't even have time to take us sip of beer on stage, or even the tune between songs, because a lot of times Bill would end a song, and then he'd start another song right away.
00:21:56.407 --> 00:22:00.471
He'd stomp his foot, or he'd just count it off, and away you go.
00:22:00.491 --> 00:22:07.700
And a lot of times they would have to figure out, well, he's got the same harmonica, so maybe he's in the same key if he doesn't switch positions.
00:22:08.299 --> 00:22:12.565
But they were so good that they could pick it up within a few notes.
00:22:12.605 --> 00:22:14.186
They could figure out what key he was in.
00:22:14.267 --> 00:22:16.449
But that's the type of performer he was.
00:22:16.528 --> 00:22:28.422
So like you said, you had to be on your toes, you had to watch him you had to give him your rapt attention every night you know you had to be focused 100% on him the whole night
00:22:28.961 --> 00:22:31.005
so he never used a set list then by the sounds of it
00:22:31.345 --> 00:22:51.513
no he didn't some of the guys told me that I think that maybe he would come out and say we're going to start with Blown Like Hell or something like that but after that it's anyone's guess what he's going to do just how he was feeling and what the crowd was asking for and so it's yeah Yeah, no set list to speak of.
00:22:52.130 --> 00:23:16.351
yeah no it's good to hear I mean again a lesson certainly for me you know in the bands I play in it's like say yeah you've got your set list the songs are this long here's your solo here you get 12 bars or 24 bars you know very formulaic and he's just completely get away from that and it definitely inspiring for me to think you know I've said it other times as well you know we've got to get away from this kind of everything being kind of laid out that we're going to do because it does take away a lot of spontaneity and you can again you can really see it in that video that he's doing
00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:24.317
oh I agree 100% Neil and from my experience I've played bands for a number of years like you have and And, you know, first off, you craft the set list.
00:23:24.939 --> 00:23:35.269
But writing the book just gave me such an inspiration to follow what Bill's doing with his originality and the way he approaches his music on stage.
00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:44.819
I mean, I learned so much about music just by writing the book and not even picking up a harp, but just writing the book and learning how Bill's music evolved and what he did.
00:23:45.560 --> 00:23:47.123
Like you said, it's very inspiring.
00:23:47.163 --> 00:23:50.346
And that's the way that blues should be played.
00:23:50.425 --> 00:24:08.770
And a lot of the guys that played with them, said they were like Rick Holmstrom, Zach Zunis, guys like that that were young when they came in the band that they were so happy to get that tutelage under Bill because that's the way the blues should be played and they were lucky to learn right from the get-go that this is how it should be done.
00:24:08.790 --> 00:24:10.833
It was a great experience for them.
00:24:11.425 --> 00:24:18.872
Yeah, I mean, it probably helps if you're touring around and playing every night because you really get to sharpen up the acts and, like you say, be able to pick up on what each of us is doing.
00:24:19.252 --> 00:24:21.193
That probably, you know, that helps a lot, right?
00:24:21.213 --> 00:24:23.977
If you want that kind of tightness in the band.
00:24:24.497 --> 00:24:26.378
Oh, yeah, it definitely does.
00:24:26.499 --> 00:24:37.749
And I know they never practiced and they never practiced when they went into the studio either because they were so, you know, they played those songs on the road so that he wanted that freshness and that's what he got each night.
00:24:37.888 --> 00:24:40.932
And when he came into the studio, he wanted that freshness too.
00:24:41.011 --> 00:24:42.373
He didn't want everything worked out.
00:24:42.712 --> 00:24:45.355
You're going to play 12 bars, you play 12, you play 24.
00:24:45.717 --> 00:24:52.063
He wanted everything fresh and that's why his recordings and his live performances sound so great.
00:24:52.624 --> 00:24:56.067
So do you do any crazy antics from Bill in your own live shows?
00:24:56.127 --> 00:24:59.411
I know you're lying down on the floor and doing all these things yourself.
00:25:00.372 --> 00:25:01.492
I'm afraid not.
00:25:02.213 --> 00:25:05.196
I've had some people tell me I should, but I would like to.
00:25:05.298 --> 00:25:08.280
I'm afraid I'm not at that level that Bill's at.
00:25:08.441 --> 00:25:26.700
It's something that crosses my mind, but I do I do when I play I don't have a set list I like to I like to see how the crowd's responding and see how I'm feeling and switch it up so I try to take some of the lessons I learned from the book and try to incorporate them into my show the best I can
00:25:27.260 --> 00:25:51.727
yeah and I'm the same right it's it takes a brave person to start doing those things on stage I try to do some of those things but it's like can you go all the way having a wireless mic's nice because you can always have a walk out in the crowd so that's always quite a crowd pleaser but yeah I'm determining on my next gig, I'm committing now on the podcast that I'm going to lie down on stage during one of my solos to copy one of Bill's and George's tricks.
00:25:52.208 --> 00:25:53.108
I love that, Neil.
00:25:53.409 --> 00:25:54.390
You have to take a picture.
00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:55.131
I want to see that.
00:25:56.231 --> 00:26:11.248
Again, Bill got a lot of that from being down in those South Central clubs and seeing the players down there because Smokey Wilson and Pee Wee Crate and George Smith, all those guys, you go down there and you're not down there to listen to music.
00:26:11.248 --> 00:26:25.403
you're down there to listen to the music and see great performances and I think you know guys like Rod Piazza and Bill that really sunk in and those guys put on great shows and are great entertainers outside of being great musicians as well too
00:26:25.983 --> 00:26:37.655
definitely yeah and as frustrating as it might be you know quite often people come up and talk to you about something like that rather than how magnificent your harmonica playing is you know it's those visual things often which you know captivate people isn't it
00:26:38.096 --> 00:26:43.162
I think so too that's what gets people talking and you know I know with Bill, it was all real.
00:26:43.563 --> 00:26:46.204
It's not like, well, now I'm going to lay down, I'm going to do this.
00:26:46.224 --> 00:26:54.213
You could just tell that he was so immersed in the music that it was just coming out of him and that there was nothing planned or phony about it.
00:26:54.233 --> 00:26:58.077
It was all real when he was playing, and I think the crowd really appreciated that.
00:26:58.238 --> 00:27:07.048
And also the guys that played with him on good nights, they were right behind him and just captivated by what he was doing and what he was playing.
00:27:07.528 --> 00:27:42.705
So you mentioned a few minutes ago about him in the studio so that's again a really interesting insight in the book that you picked out is that he would work really hard in the studio he'd be as dedicated, he would really craft the songs and he would really work on the mixing afterwards to make sure all the sound was really great and I think Alligator Records Bruce at Alligator Records gave him free reign to do all the production himself which is unusual at Alligator Records and his last albums which he did with Alligator so that was a big part of other of his studio work yeah
00:27:43.145 --> 00:28:15.820
yeah it sure was neil i know that that bob knew him who played drums with bill on and off for a number of years he told me that bill said you can't be perfect on the bandstand but you can be perfect in the studio and bill also mentioned that you know when i'm gone my my recordings are going to be here forever they're going to live on so he wanted to do make him as as good as he could to you know to create that legacy and have his music live on but he he was very good in the studio and like i said they didn't practice before they came in the studio they They laid down different tracks, but he was very hands-on with the mixing.
00:28:15.861 --> 00:28:20.786
He would come in and mix and remix as much as he had to just to get it right.
00:28:21.047 --> 00:28:29.635
And Bruce at Alligator could see that Bill was very accomplished in that, and he was pretty much a hands-off approach to Bill.
00:28:29.695 --> 00:28:34.421
I mean, Bruce listened to the final mixes and made some recommendations, but pretty much it was all Bill.
00:28:35.122 --> 00:28:39.205
Yeah, so you say they went in with an improvised approach.
00:28:39.246 --> 00:28:40.887
They would play without huge...
00:28:41.008 --> 00:29:00.769
arrangements sort of beforehand so they would play and would he do like quite a lot of takes and then was he sort of taking because i think he was splicing them up a little bit and taking little bits out some takes and putting them in with others is that how that's where all these mixing and these kind of precision came from but he sort of approached it in an improvised open way when he was actually playing did he in the studio
00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:30.701
right yeah yeah the the real mixing you know and the the real uh the engineering part came in after they laid down the tracks and then and then bill would bring in you know a keyboard player or a lot of times initially he would just bring in guitar or two bass and drums and then a lot of times bill would lay down the harmonica after or sometimes he'd lay it down then or he'd bring in the horns after that and the keyboard so it was kind of a piecemeal approach the way he uh he put his recordings together
00:29:30.721 --> 00:29:41.752
and of course he was he was hugely into writing his own material right so he wrote a lot of lyrics and he wanted to write original blues and he saw that as a really important part of them you know the songs he was creating Yeah,
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