James Cotton retrospective

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Kyle Rowland and Kenny Neal join me on episode 143 for a retrospective on James Mr.

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Superharp Cotton.

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Born in 1935 on the Bonny Blue Plantation in Mississippi, James Cotton received his first harmonica from his mother and learnt by ear, captivated by Sonny Boy Williamson's King Biscuit Time broadcasts.

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From 9 to 16 he lived with Sonny Boy, then played with Howling Wolf before holding the harmonica chair in the Muddy Waters band for 12 years.

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Strong Striking out solo in the late 1960s, he spent the next 45 years releasing acclaimed records and delivering explosive live shows, powered by a tireless work ethic and boundless energy.

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He earned two Grammy Awards, one with Muddy Waters and one for a solo album, and garnered further nominations.

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A lifelong devotee of the blues, he gave back generously in his later years and became like family to those closest to him.

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This podcast is sponsored by Zeidel Harmonicas.

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Visit the old this harmonica factory in the world at www.zeidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zeidel Harmonicas.

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Hello, Kenny Neal and Cal Rowland, and welcome to the podcast.

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My pleasure, my pleasure.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, thanks guys.

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So we're here today to do a retrospective on the great James Cotton, and you guys both knew him well, yeah, and spent lots of time with him.

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So I think we got the right people to speak about Cotton's life.

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So we'll start with you, Kenny, I think.

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So you are a a well-known blues musician.

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You play guitar, piano, sing, trumpet, and you also play some harmonica.

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And your father was a harmonica player.

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And so, yeah, tell us about your connection with James Cotton.

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Well, you know, before I went out on my own as a solo artist, as Kenny Neal, I left home in 1976 and joined the Buddy Guy band.

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And I was the bass player for Buddy Guy and Junior Wells, who's also a great harmonica player.

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And when I moved from Baton Rouge, Louisiana to Chicago, that's when I met all of the great guys like Muddy Waters, James Cotton, Junior Wells, Field Guy, all of the local guys around Chicago.

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And James Cotton was one of the first guys I met when I moved to Chicago.

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And he looked after me like if I was a nephew to him.

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And when Buddy was off to road and James would need a bass player, he would call me up and I would join him with his band on stage and play, go out and tour with him.

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What sort of year then did you first meet him?

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I met him in 1976.

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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So you've known him for a long time.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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And Billy Branch and I, all of us, we was the new kids on the block then.

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James

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you know these are the guys that we would look up to and then after I got to know James well and James met my family and my dad and got to know my family James put my little brother Noel who's no longer with us now in his band and my brother noel stayed with james cotton band for uh right at 30 years as a bass player

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fantastic yeah so did you get any harmonica tips from james

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Man, he was so great and so fast and played so much, I didn't know what to get.

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I couldn't catch him.

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I remember when I used to play on stage with him, he would play so hard and he would turn around and spit a reed out of his mouth.

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Really?

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Hard, he would blow the harmonica.

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I thought he would be coughing or something, but he would spit a reed up.

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That was always amazing to me because I never saw a guy that plays so powerful with the harmonica I mean all of the guys that I knew in Chicago that was harmonica players James is like the real powerful hard-hitting harmonica player in Chicago

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yeah definitely yeah and so you also contributed on the the 2002 album the 35th anniversary jam yeah and you think you sang on the don't start me talking song

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yes yes I think that's the very first cut on that album

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Tell everything I know Gonna break up this signify Somebody got to go

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Yeah, because at that stage, which we'll get into later, he had his throat problems, right?

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So he couldn't sing for a while.

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And so you were singing for him, yeah?

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Yeah.

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But I knew him way before his voice left him, you know?

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Yeah, no, absolutely.

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Well, 1976...

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We'll get on to his albums.

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But for me, that is his real golden era of harmonica playing.

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Some fantastic recordings he made in the 70s.

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So a great time to know him, yeah.

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So we'll introduce Kyle now.

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So thanks for joining, Kyle.

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So you are from Sacramento and a well-known harmonica player.

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Thank you.

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By the age of 16, you were named in the West Coast Blues Hall of Fame, and you befriended Cotton Yen.

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He became a sort of mentor to you, yeah?

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So tell me about your relationship with James.

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Yeah, so I started playing professionally when I was 10 years old, and that was in 2004, so it was a little bit past the 1976 timeline when Kenny met him.

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But I met him actually when I was 13, so that would have been a few years later there, and I went to go see him play, and he had...

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he had heard me play out for somebody somebody in the audience asked me to play and Cotton just happened to be there and I played Mojo which is one of Cotton's songs that he played with Muddy and so when Cotton was playing at the end of the show he pulled me on stage and so I sat in with him and it kind of just began a friendship from there and then I saw him again with Hubert when I was 16 and played with him then and then later on when I was 19 I ended up hanging out with him for a couple weekends and California.

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I used to go down and spend a lot of time with him down at his house in Austin, and he became more of a friend than a person that I just listened to on the records.

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So, yeah, he taught me a lot of different stuff, and not just harmonica-wise, but I was a teenager in high school, and Cotton, you know, gave me a lot of advice when it came to the girls

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and stuff.

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Yeah, fantastic.

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So did he give you sort of harmonica lessons or was it more general than that?

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You know, he never really, there was one thing he did show me on the harmonica, maybe two things.

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It was the beginning of Moaning at Midnight, the harmonica part of Moaning at Midnight with Wolf and Smokestack Lightning.

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And according to Cotton, he was the first person to play those licks, those main riffs.

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And

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Wolf had happened to hear him do those in the studio.

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So he did Morning and Midnight and played the harmonica part of Morning and Midnight and Smokes.

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And then, you know, the guitar part was apparently copied after what Cotton wrote.

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So I remember him showing me those two arp links.

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But other than that like Kenny said man cotton was just so fast and powerful it's kind of like you're you're in a trance when you're watching them you're trying to figure

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out what is he doing yeah well yeah definitely a force of nature my own vague connection with him I did see him perform once in the UK so that was fantastic he was one of my heroes so I was delighted to see him but uh unfortunately never got to meet him or anything so great to have you guys on so so we're getting to his life now we'll talk through his life so he's born in 1935 as James Hayden Henry Cotton in Tukana, Mississippi.

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Got the name of Mr.

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Superharp later.

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So, yeah, so James Superharp Cotton is his stage name.

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Just touching on that name, I understand that he had a drummer called Kenny Johnson who wore a denim jacket which had Superharp in studs on it.

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Yeah, well, you know, Kinnar was with James for a long time and they was real close.

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Also, after Kinnar at Nardle left James, Kennard came over and joined my band after James for, he stayed with me for 16 years.

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But him and James Cotton created all that Superhart.

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That's when, yeah, when Kennard used to wear the denim jacket, James had one as well with the Superhart.

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So he had it made specially for him, did

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he?

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I was there during all that time, yeah, that was special for the band.

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I actually just saw that jacket at two weeks ago, I was down in Austin and I was visiting Cotton's wife, Jacqueline.

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Uh, my fiance and I went down there and visited her and yeah, saw the jacket and she still has it hanging up in the house and has super harp and a bunch of rhinestone

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studs attached to it.

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Fantastic.

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Yeah.

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So he was the youngest of eight children born like many of these, uh, classic players in, in, in a farming family.

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So he was born on the Bonnie blue plantation in Mississippi and, uh, we'll touch on, but there was a documentary made, uh, and released recently called Bonnie Blue about James Cotton.

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So that came from the plantation he was born on, yeah.

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And he received his first harmonica as a Christmas present from his mother, who also played a little harmonica as well.

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Anyone know about this early time in his life?

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Well, he would tell me about his mother playing harmonica, but I just kind of took a spin off from James from 76.

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He would always talk about the country, but because we was all from the country, we didn't share a lot of that because we already knew what time it was.

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You know?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I know a little bit about Cotton's childhood.

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I know that, yeah, he was, mom gave him a harmonica and he learned how to do the train sound because there's a train that would pass by.

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He and his uncle went to the general store there on the plantation down in Tunica where he lived on Bonnie Blue.

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He lived on Bonnie Blue.

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And his uncle went inside the store and Cotton had been listening to Sonny Boyle Williamson's King Biscuit Time radio program.

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Cotton learned how to play the harmonica by listening to Sonny Boy Williamson playing on the radio.

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Cotton was sitting outside his general store as his uncle went inside to buy some groceries and whatnot.

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Cotton would put out a little hat and was playing harp as his uncle was shopping.

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By the time Cotton was eight years old, nine years old this time, his uncle came out and Cotton had made more in that few minutes of his uncle being in the store than his uncle made all week.

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So then his uncle said, well, man, you know, I got to take this kid to go meet Sonny Boy Williamson.

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So then he took him to go meet Sonny Boy Williamson.

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Pretty much the uncle said, hey, this is my nephew.

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I want you to take him under your wing.

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Sonny Boy kind of refused the first couple times.

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And I think finally he accepted a man and then caught and lived with Sonny Boy from the ages of nine to 15.

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Just traveled around as Sonny Boy.

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Like you say, he was mentored by Sonny Boy and they say he lived with him for six years there.

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So, I

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mean, I did a retrospective on Sonny Boy not long ago and definitely the story from Sonny Boy is he had quite a rough life.

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So, a boy of nine years old going around with him, he must have seen some things there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah,

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actually, I was going to say, Cotton tells a great story of the day that him and Sonny Boy, you know, he moved out of Sonny Boy, or Sonny Boy moved out of his house.

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And there's actually a song written about it, Too Close Together.

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But Cotton was there, and pretty much Sonny Boy's lady went to church.

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And it was a Sunday morning, and his lady wasn't feeling well, so she came home early from church.

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Well, Sonny Boy was fooling around with the next-door neighbor lady.

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Sonny Boy's wife caught them in the act, and Cotton heard all this commotion, and he poked his head out of his bedroom and saw Sonny Boy running naked down the middle of the hallway out the front door, and Sonny Boy's wife was chasing him with a cleaver, a meat cleaver, and Cotton says, I screamed, and Sonny Boy went outside and ran around the neighborhood, and Cotton says, I screamed, run, Sonny Boy, run, and Sonny Boy's lady packed up and moved up to Milwaukee, I think it was, and Sonny Boy ended up trying, you know, following her and pretty much gave his band to Cotton, who was 15, 16 at the time.

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And Cotton said that didn't really last too long with that band because he was a kid.

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But yeah, that's how.

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And so then Sonny Boy wrote the song Too Close Together about that day.

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Well,

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before then, he was opening for Sonny Boy playing outside juke joints already.

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He was sort of playing for tips.

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I know that Hubert would play around quite a lot.

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Hubert and Cotton knew each other when they were kids.

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And I know that Matt Murphy, too, would play a lot with Sonny Boy.

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Cotton used to tell me that they used to play these juke joints in house parties and stuff, and he'd be hanging out.

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I

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mean, you're listening to Cotton Play, I don't hear lots of Sonny Boy kind of, you know, he doesn't imitate his style a lot, I don't think.

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I don't think he really tried to copy him in that way, did he?

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Well, you know, back

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then, everybody wanted to have their own style, you know, and that's what made you stand out from the rest of the group.

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So if you was, if you sounded like Sonny Boy, then you was a copycat.

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And we didn't want to be copycats back then.

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We wanted to be our own.

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I think that if you really listen to Cotton, you can hear Sonny Boy all throughout that stuff.

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I mean, he does a lot of Sonny Boy stuff, but he just puts more power behind it and more punk, you know, where Sonny Boy was more subtle.

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I mean, Cotton could do a lot of subtle stuff too, but I think, you know, there's a lot of stuff that Cotton does that you're like, oh man, that's a Sonny Boy lick.

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It's just turned up a little louder and a little faster, especially in the 70s and 80s and 90s.

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As you mentioned there, Cal, Sonny Boy kind of gave him his band when he followed his wife and moved away.

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But that didn't last too long because I think he was a bit young.

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You know, these were all men and he was a boy.

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But then, so then he joined Howling Wolf's band and was the harmonica player for Howling Wolf.

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Yeah, I believe he met Wolf in Beale Street and that, so, you know, ended up joining his band, yeah?

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Yeah, so Cotton played with Wolf for a while there and he actually recorded on a couple songs.

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One of them was Riding My Pone

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That's

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a 16-year-old Cotton playing harp.

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I believe that is Cotton's recording debut in 1952 when he recorded at Sam Phillips Memphis Recording Service, Later Sun Records.

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Yeah.

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There is no more cotton

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And that

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was with Pat Hare.

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And the story behind that was Cotton and Pat Hare and another drummer who I forgot his name, but Cotton told me, but there was a drummer.

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And they were going to have that studio time booked down at Sam's place.

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And they went in there and they showed up and the drummer didn't show up.

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The drummer got too drunk.

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Cotton said they drank the night before.

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And so it was just him and Pat Hare that showed up to the studio.

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And so Cotton got behind the drum set and started playing drums.

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And then Pat Hare played guitar.

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And then Cotton said that he overdubbed the vocals.

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That was back when overdub was just starting off.

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And you could hear that in Cotton Crop Blues.

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Because Pat Harris just playing guitar over the entire thing.

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It sounds like a fat guitar solo.

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And then you have Cotton singing over that.

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And so that's Cotton all on drums.

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He never played harp on the first four songs that he did on Sun Records under his own name.

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But yeah, interesting he didn't play harmonica at that stage.

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Yeah.

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So he made his, like say, solo recordings with Sun Records in, I've got it as 1953.

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And then shortly after that in 1954, he joined Muddy Waters back.

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so quite a quick rise to fame to get you know the best harmonica gig going at that time for sure yeah and he replaced Junior Wells in Muddy Waters band yeah and he played with him for 12 years and then I think on and off through the years as well but for 12 years he was his main harmonica player yeah do we know about the story about him joining Muddy's band

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I don't know the story about it but I knew I just knew that he was the harmonica player after Junior

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yeah I think that Muddy Muddy heard Cotton, and yeah, I really don't know the whole story, but I know that I know some stories when he was working with Muddy, and Muddy being a band leader, but I don't remember how he joined it.

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I don't know, you know, Muddy was very, as they all were, man, they were really, you know, it's a serious business.

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So Muddy made sure the band was dressed to the nines and whatnot, and then he'd find different band members and stuff for having a dirty suit or maybe a mustard stain or something on their collar or something.

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So I know Muddy fined Cotton a few times and fired him also a few times too.

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And so Cotton would say, Muddy fired me once when they were on that Newport festival.

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And Muddy says, man, you messed up my song.

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And Cotton says, you messed up your own song.

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And Muddy said, well, you're fired.

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And then a few days later, Muddy called him and said, hey, we had band practice on Tuesday and hung up the phone.

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Good.

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He brought him back.

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So my understanding in the first four years is that he was he was standing in for little walter on the live shows and sort of how he was asking him to play like little walter so you know style but then cotton didn't want to do that he wanted to play his own style as you as you were saying kenny so i think the first four years he was just playing with him on tour and you know on gigs and it wasn't until 1958 that he recorded for the first time with muddy waters and he went into the chess studios to do that do you uh know anything more about that

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yeah so he would be on the road with Walter at some points around town, but Walter was also having a career of himself at this time.

00:21:22.355 --> 00:21:44.880
There is a great story that Cotton was with Muddy when they were touring Georgia, and they'd seen Ann Cole sing Mojo, and her version of Mojo, there's a bunch of lyrics to it, different words that surround the concept of voodoo and that stuff, and so when they were watching Ann Cole, Muddy told Cotton, hey, you know, remember these lyrics?

00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.643
lyrics because he knew that Cotton was really good at remembering stuff.

00:21:48.203 --> 00:21:50.905
So he told Cotton to remember the lyrics because Muddy said he wanted to learn it.

00:21:51.426 --> 00:22:00.336
And so in the car ride back from Georgia up to Chicago, Cotton and Muddy were, you know, Cotton was trying to teach Muddy this song of what Ann Cole was saying.

00:22:00.797 --> 00:22:11.488
And I guess with Muddy's accent, he had trouble saying, you know, I got these hoodoo ashes laying around my bed and these different words and stuff that Ann Cole had on Mojo when she wrote it.

00:22:12.148 --> 00:22:34.373
So that's why Muddy kind of started singing in his own version of Mojo and when they got back to Chicago, Muddy recorded it and put Walter on the recording and that always bothered Cotton because he helped Muddy work through that song and taught Muddy the words and stuff and then he got back and Muddy got Walter on it.

00:22:34.413 --> 00:22:38.696
Of course, because that of course was Muddy's signature tune and such a famous one.

00:22:38.978 --> 00:23:05.127
Cotton did very famously play at Newport in 1960 with Muddy Waters where he did play Mo you're working That became a really iconic version of the song, yeah?

00:23:05.568 --> 00:23:07.109
Yeah, that line in the beginning, the...

00:23:07.490 --> 00:23:13.335
That actually was a line written by Otis Spann.

00:23:14.375 --> 00:23:19.160
Cotton ended up playing on harmonica later on, but that was an Otis Spann lick.

00:23:19.641 --> 00:23:25.125
I think that Otis and Cotton wrote it together when they lived in Muddy's basement.

00:23:25.605 --> 00:23:27.468
But yeah, that's an iconic version.

00:23:28.008 --> 00:23:32.412
So he played with Muddy for various years, and then he...

00:23:32.592 --> 00:23:41.201
He sort of later on went back with Muddy in the 70s and recorded on the Grammy-winning Hard Again album in 1977 produced by Johnny Winter.

00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:46.487
So, you know, a very well-known and, you know, Grammy-winning album that he played on with Muddy when he went back with him there, yeah.

00:23:47.086 --> 00:23:48.689
Oh, I remember when they recorded it.

00:23:48.788 --> 00:23:51.392
I remember when Johnny brought him in and they did it.

00:23:52.313 --> 00:24:04.425
Yeah, that was during the same time we was all hanging out at that time, which was a big plus for James because that just, you know, really put him on the map big time, that album.

00:24:04.926 --> 00:24:06.788
Yeah, so it was a big deal for them winning the Grammy.

00:24:06.828 --> 00:24:08.430
Did that, you know, help their career?

00:24:09.111 --> 00:24:10.332
Very much so, yeah.

00:24:11.053 --> 00:24:11.594
Very much.

00:24:11.854 --> 00:24:13.435
It just enhanced everything.

00:24:13.496 --> 00:24:18.580
The jobs picked up, you know, they're making more money and it was all good.

00:24:18.601 --> 00:24:22.164
And, you know, Johnny was a real down-home guy.

00:24:22.244 --> 00:24:36.781
I was friends with him up until the end of his life as well, so by him doing that album, these are the people that he always looked up to as much and Cotton and all of them, Buddy Guy and all of these guys.

00:24:36.842 --> 00:24:39.746
So it was straight from the heart, that album.

00:24:40.227 --> 00:24:41.328
His power's in there.

00:24:41.388 --> 00:24:47.037
So the song I Want To Be Loved, which is one of my favorite Muddy Waters songs, has got Cotton playing harmonica in first position.

00:24:47.057 --> 00:24:49.119
It's fantastic and again shows his real power.

00:25:07.554 --> 00:25:14.665
He also recorded on the Muddy Mississippi Waters live album in 1977 as well, the same years as Hard Again.

00:25:14.746 --> 00:25:18.853
And again, a fantastic live album with lots of great cotton harmonica on there.

00:25:19.093 --> 00:25:22.439
So it's just deep down in Florida, one of my real favorites of him playing.

00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:24.942
Suntime down there every day, right?

00:25:25.022 --> 00:25:25.624
That's the one.

00:25:26.326 --> 00:25:27.827
Yeah, fantastic song.

00:25:27.847 --> 00:25:51.474
Suntime Yeah, so going back, but Cotton actually left Muddy's band in 1966 and then went back and did a few stints with him.

00:25:51.494 --> 00:25:55.838
But yeah, so he did leave Muddy's band in 1966 wanting to go and do his own thing.

00:25:55.878 --> 00:26:04.926
And then he started his solo career, forming initially the Jimmy Cotton Blues Quartet in 1966, which later became the James Cotton Blues Band.

00:26:05.607 --> 00:26:10.451
This was managed by Albert Grossman, who also managed Bob Dylan and Janis Joplin.

00:26:10.491 --> 00:26:12.272
So, you know, he had connections to them.

00:26:12.333 --> 00:26:16.156
That's quite a, you know, do you know anything about that time I

00:26:16.217 --> 00:26:36.493
mean, I know that he left Muddy and started his own group, and they did that, the Chicago Blues today, there's three volumes, volume one, two, and three, and I think he's on, I think it's volume three of the Jimmy Cotton Quartet, and man, that's just some of the best recording of Cotton's, you know, in my opinion, that's some of the greatest stuff he ever did.

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000
...

00:26:48.066 --> 00:26:54.718
Thank you.

00:26:55.938 --> 00:26:59.141
Yeah, I mean, then he got Luther Tucker to be in his band.

00:26:59.181 --> 00:27:04.766
And the first band was Luther Tucker, Francis Clay, Bobby Anderson, Alberto Gina Quinto, and Cotton.

00:27:05.385 --> 00:27:09.690
And man, they just were one of the greatest bands of all time in the blues.

00:27:10.471 --> 00:27:13.553
And they dominated every club that they walked into, man.

00:27:13.573 --> 00:27:17.277
You hear those old recordings, the live ones and stuff.

00:27:17.396 --> 00:27:19.578
They're just such a killer band, man.

00:27:19.878 --> 00:27:25.384
At this time, Cotton was doing backflips and somersaults and stuff on the stage.

00:27:25.443 --> 00:27:27.625
And He was a real entertainer, too.

00:27:28.027 --> 00:27:31.671
And so that was the early, the first form of James Cotton Blues Band.

00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:36.957
And later on, Pat Murphy joined, and the band kind of went more of a funk direction.

00:27:37.718 --> 00:27:45.847
In 1967, he had his first year as a band leader, and he came out with two albums, which were Seems Like Yesterday and Late Night Blues.

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000
...

00:27:59.682 --> 00:28:04.528
So yeah, this is the time when, you know, I think the time you're talking about there, he's really moving into it.

00:28:05.569 --> 00:28:08.153
And he did lots of great albums through this time.

00:28:08.594 --> 00:28:10.817
Recording for Verve and Vanguard, yeah.

00:28:10.876 --> 00:28:15.742
So he recorded the James Cotton Blues Band in 1967 with Verve and song like that.

00:28:15.804 --> 00:28:17.806
And, you know, Feeling Good was on there again.

00:28:17.885 --> 00:28:19.387
Lots of horns on the album.

00:28:19.808 --> 00:28:23.192
He did Cut You Loose in 1968 with Vanguard.

00:28:23.232 --> 00:28:29.662
So at this stage, yeah, he's really in his solo career, yeah.

00:28:30.145 --> 00:28:31.678
Thank you.

00:28:40.609 --> 00:28:42.392
such a powerhouse of a band, you know.

00:28:42.951 --> 00:28:50.077
Luther Tucker being on guitar and Luther previously played behind Walter and also on that Chicago Blues today.

00:28:50.137 --> 00:28:57.505
It's kind of neat because after the Jimmy Cotton Quartet, the next selection of songs actually features Luther on guitar.

00:28:57.565 --> 00:29:02.769
So it's kind of like a foreshadowing that Luther's going to be joining Cotton in the next coming years.

00:29:02.868 --> 00:29:07.653
But yeah, man, that era of Cotton is just one of my favorites.

00:29:08.034 --> 00:29:35.522
Getting into the 1970s, you signed for Budda Records and for me a fantastic period through the 70s he recorded 100% cotton album high energy live and on the move live the electric lady touring all the time crossing the you know playing packed houses doing lots of touring and doing all these antics that you say so all this doing somersaults and things this is something I think a lot of the blues guys who really tried hard to entertain you so that's something they really you know they worked on yeah

00:29:36.503 --> 00:29:49.637
yeah I mean you had this time you had like you know little Richard you had James Brown you know, all these, all these cats, they had their own kind of little thing to their own niche that, that could really come across, you know, to the audience and stuff.

00:29:49.657 --> 00:29:53.701
So I think, you know, cotton figured, man, I'm gonna start doing somersaults and stuff.

00:29:53.761 --> 00:30:04.933
And, and, uh, you know, I heard one story that when he was playing with muddy, this was, this was in the, in the sixties, early sixties, when they were playing at some club and the club was in the basement, I can't remember where it was.

00:30:05.013 --> 00:30:10.480
It was, I forgot what club it was, maybe Silvio's or something, but there was piping above the stage.

00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:19.569
And so Cotton got up there and he wrapped his legs around the piping and hung upside down and started doing like these upside down sit-ups while playing harmonica.

00:30:20.029 --> 00:30:21.711
People were throwing him money.

00:30:21.751 --> 00:30:28.098
And then at the end of the gig, I think Muddy came over and was like, hey, you know, I'm going to have to collect some of that money.

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:33.605
But I think that Cotton starting his own band was pretty liberating for him.

00:30:33.644 --> 00:30:35.066
You know, he's the boss

00:30:35.125 --> 00:30:35.346
now.

00:30:36.248 --> 00:30:51.785
And so we talked about his, obviously his raw energy, he's full of energy and power and so there's a great album one of my absolute favours of his which is Live and On The Move and it's a double album really captures him and it's got some fantastic songs on there Fanny

00:30:51.825 --> 00:31:03.678
Mae

00:31:14.210 --> 00:31:16.112
Were you around Kenny for that album?

00:31:16.152 --> 00:31:17.532
Do you know anything about that one?

00:31:17.573 --> 00:31:19.034
I know about the album, but I wasn't

00:31:19.094 --> 00:31:19.875
around for that.

00:31:20.214 --> 00:31:23.198
The one I was around for was the one he did.

00:31:23.278 --> 00:31:25.259
I think it was called High Compression.

00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:27.020
Yeah.

00:31:27.080 --> 00:31:28.201
When they recorded that.

00:31:28.241 --> 00:31:31.365
That's my little brother playing with him in Ken Arden, all of them.

00:31:32.205 --> 00:31:45.696
I got a book full of girls And I can call on the phone And they all dig me Cause my conversation's so strong I ain't doing too bad

00:31:47.439 --> 00:31:53.344
No, I ain't doing too bad So High Compression was recorded in 1984 and that was his first album on Alligator.

00:31:53.663 --> 00:31:58.307
Yeah, so again, an album that I had and listened to a lot and really loved that.

00:31:58.327 --> 00:32:04.814
And in fact, the Super Harp song is on that album as well, which is a real characteristic song.

00:32:08.356 --> 00:32:25.866
Super Harp Super Harp Super Harp It

00:32:25.928 --> 00:32:27.608
was just an amazing band.

00:32:27.689 --> 00:32:29.029
It was just so tight.

00:32:29.391 --> 00:32:34.075
I mean, the earlier stuff he did was great, but then he changed over.

00:32:34.174 --> 00:32:44.943
I guess when he got the younger guys and Kenard Johnson, he was just a powerhouse, one of the greatest shuffling guys we had in the country at that time.

00:32:44.943 --> 00:33:08.910
so when that band came together I mean they was just amazing at how tight they would play actually when I first heard them I go wow man I say we don't sound like that with Buddy Guy band you know so I say if I get me a band I want to be tight like that you know he was always when he hit the stage it was 150% as you

00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:18.420
say your brother played bass in the band so he took your place were you happy was that all a mutually understanding or any problems with your brother taking your place in his band?

00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:47.410
No, a guy by the name of Herman Applewhite was his bass player and when Herman didn't play actually Herman helped me out throughout my career because Herman was originally with Buddy Guy and then Herman dropped Buddy Guy and I joined Buddy Band and then Herman started playing with Cotton and then when Herman Harmon quit the band with Cotton.

00:33:47.430 --> 00:33:52.755
That's when Cotton called me up and was asking me about my brother Noel.

00:33:53.474 --> 00:34:01.021
And I introduced him to Noel and he sent for Noel to go to Chicago and they just became family.

00:34:01.382 --> 00:34:02.123
We all became

00:34:02.202 --> 00:34:02.623
family.

00:34:03.124 --> 00:34:04.904
And so what about him signing for Alligator?

00:34:04.964 --> 00:34:06.066
Was that a big deal?

00:34:06.287 --> 00:34:09.389
Because, you know, the biggest sort of blues label probably at that time, yeah?

00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:10.409
Oh, yeah.

00:34:10.469 --> 00:34:11.210
That was

00:34:11.291 --> 00:34:13.952
a big deal for Cotton in 84.

00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:39.090
I remember that so well because I was pitching my stuff at the same time he was doing the album for Alligator before I joined Alligator I didn't join Alligator until 87 for my first album but Cotton yeah Cotton was there in 84 and that was a big boost as well when he did that album for Alligator took it to another level

00:34:40.092 --> 00:35:16.617
yeah and he did he had a great success through the 80s so in 1986 he did live from chicago mr super harp himself and this is his first grammy nominated uh album for best traditional blues album so And then he also did Take Me Back in 1987, which received another Grammy nomination.

00:35:16.657 --> 00:35:18.940
So, you know, he's starting to get some real recognition then.

00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:22.945
He finally got that Grammy, too, when he did the record in 96.

00:35:23.467 --> 00:35:24.427
Deep in the Blues, yeah.

00:35:24.668 --> 00:35:25.650
Deep in the Blues, yeah.

00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:30.396
Deep in the Blues with Charlie Hayden and Joe Lewis on the guitar and Dave Maxwell.

00:35:30.615 --> 00:35:32.038
And they won that Grammy from that.

00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:34.981
I want to play with Joe Poodle.

00:35:35.742 --> 00:35:37.344
I mean, little Poodle dog.

00:35:37.364 --> 00:35:37.826
Come on, boy.

00:35:40.750 --> 00:35:40.829
Yeah.

00:35:42.306 --> 00:35:43.132
Bye.

00:35:47.617 --> 00:35:50.541
Yeah, man, that was another great record of Cotton.

00:35:50.561 --> 00:35:59.809
It's actually, I think, one of the final records where he sings on the entire record, because it wasn't soon after that that he got his vocal cords all worked on and stuff.

00:36:00.048 --> 00:36:07.175
Well, just before that, he did a real big album in the harmonica world called Harp Attack, which he recorded with Junie Wells and Carrie Bell and Billy Branch.

00:36:07.295 --> 00:36:07.434
Yeah.

00:36:07.695 --> 00:36:15.722
And this is a real well-known, particularly in harmonica circles, a really well-known album, some fantastic songs on there with, you know, some great collaboration of harmonica on there.

00:36:17.123 --> 00:36:17.583
Give me all the records

00:36:17.583 --> 00:36:37.653
you know

00:36:38.014 --> 00:36:43.688
cotton did in 1989 for a very short time, he owned a club called the Cotton Club.

00:36:44.590 --> 00:36:50.635
And we just found some videos, a resurfaced video of one of his birthday celebrations there at the Cotton Club.

00:36:51.235 --> 00:36:54.759
And I don't know if Kenny remembers going to Cotton's Club at all.

00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.559
I don't think he owned it for too long.

00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:59.202
Oh, I played it a few times.

00:36:59.422 --> 00:37:00.903
I played there a few times.

00:37:01.123 --> 00:37:01.985
Was that in Chicago?

00:37:02.025 --> 00:37:03.365
Yeah.

00:37:03.726 --> 00:37:05.228
Yeah, I knew that place as well.

00:37:05.288 --> 00:37:08.190
I played there maybe four or five times.

00:37:09.190 --> 00:37:10.913
So that only lasted for a year, did it?

00:37:12.173 --> 00:37:13.255
What's the story behind that one?

00:37:13.996 --> 00:37:24.226
Well, I can't tell all of it, but I know his wife came in with a.38 and ran everybody out the club looking for cotton.

00:37:26.670 --> 00:37:49.327
You know, Neil, there's a lot of big portion of cotton's life that I think there's a lot of people that kind of, it's a truth, you know, there's a lot of stuff that cotton went through and participated in, but it's kind of like this whole section of his life life, we try to kind of dance around a little bit because we don't want people to remember Cotton for the time in the 80s and stuff when he was having a good time.

00:37:53.442 --> 00:37:59.347
Hey,

00:37:59.367 --> 00:38:06.612
everybody, you're listening to Neil Warren's Harmonica Happy Hour podcast, proudly sponsored by Tom Halcheck and Blue Moon Harmonicas.

00:38:07.153 --> 00:38:11.297
This is Jason Ritchie here telling you I love Blue Moon Harmonicas.

00:38:11.378 --> 00:38:18.844
I love the combs, the covers, the custom harps, the refurbished pre-war marine bands, and nobody's easier to work with than Tom Halcheck.

00:38:19.063 --> 00:38:23.407
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00:38:23.407 --> 00:38:25.550
So you mentioned there he had his throat problem.

00:38:25.570 --> 00:38:27.791
So yeah, I think he had throat cancer, right?

00:38:27.811 --> 00:38:28.833
And that's what he suffered with.

00:38:28.873 --> 00:38:35.898
And I think he got this first in 1994 and he had surgery on his throat for that and then radiation treatment afterwards.

00:38:36.219 --> 00:38:37.360
So obviously a difficult time for him.

00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:43.125
Yeah, that was very difficult for him, you know, because we, Cotton was a workaholic, man.

00:38:43.164 --> 00:38:53.153
We would go on the road and stay out there for three weeks and we would work every night of the week, you know, play the gig, jump in the van, next town.

00:38:53.538 --> 00:38:55.960
And we did it every night of the week.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.882
It wasn't no such thing as being off.

00:38:58.902 --> 00:39:01.324
After a while, that kind of beat you up a little bit.

00:39:02.206 --> 00:39:08.371
Plus, when he got the cancer and the illness, it took a lot out of him after that.

00:39:09.472 --> 00:39:16.358
The spirit was a little broken for him because he wasn't able to really shine like he wanted to.

00:39:16.938 --> 00:39:20.300
So then he had to focus more on his playing.

00:39:21.342 --> 00:39:26.226
And he would speak to you through a harmonica even more so when he got sick.

00:39:27.128 --> 00:39:32.974
Obviously, it affected his singing voice, as we said, and with you singing one of the songs on the 2002 album.

00:39:33.014 --> 00:39:35.677
So he did sing after that, though, didn't he?

00:39:35.737 --> 00:39:38.900
But did he get his singing voice back?

00:39:39.601 --> 00:39:41.063
You know, I saw him sing

00:39:41.103 --> 00:39:46.829
a couple times live, and this is rather kind of before he passed away a few years.

00:39:47.268 --> 00:39:49.751
But he would sing stuff like Hoochie Coochie Man.

00:39:50.152 --> 00:39:54.918
But I do remember one time, man, I was hanging with him, and at Yoshi's in Oakland.

00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:59.144
And Noel was on the bass, and Matt Murphy was on the guitar.

00:39:59.164 --> 00:40:00.447
It was a tour they were doing together.

00:40:00.467 --> 00:40:07.679
And Cotton went to the mic, and he said, you know, he says, I'm going to do something right now that you don't know that I'm going to do it.

00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.284
The band doesn't know what I'm going to do, and I don't even know what I'm going to do.

00:40:12.025 --> 00:40:13.487
And he started doing this song.

00:40:13.708 --> 00:40:18.896
I think Kenny will help me remember the name of it, but it's I Went to See the Gypsy to Have My Fortune Told.

00:40:20.097 --> 00:40:23.581
I went to see the gypsy and have my fortune read.

00:40:24.262 --> 00:40:27.043
I forgot the name of it, but he sang that whole song, man.

00:40:27.684 --> 00:40:30.967
The band was just in shock, you know, staring at him.

00:40:31.188 --> 00:40:33.849
And I talked to Tom Holland on the guitar later.

00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:34.530
I talked to him.

00:40:34.550 --> 00:40:35.811
I said, man, does he do that often?

00:40:35.871 --> 00:40:37.193
And he says, he's never done that.

00:40:37.873 --> 00:40:46.960
And just watching him from the audience do that song, it hit my heart because I knew that he wanted to sing like he used to sing and he just really couldn't.

00:40:47.041 --> 00:40:49.563
But it didn't matter if he couldn't, he still did.

00:40:50.003 --> 00:41:14.010
And then he did some other stuff yeah like I heard him do Hoochie Coochie Man certain parts but Daryl Nolish sang next to him for quite some time as his regular guy in the band and his voice is fantastic too but I think Cotton really wanted to man and he found a way to do it even though if it wasn't as powerful as it before and he sang on his last record too he sang a

00:41:14.070 --> 00:41:19.576
song about Bonnie Blue written by Tom Hambridge yeah so yeah the Cotton Mouth Man yeah in 2013

00:41:20.016 --> 00:41:39.056
yeah and

00:41:39.096 --> 00:41:45.083
he's got a lot of character in his voice and isn't even though obviously he's not got quite the power he used to yeah i i remember

00:41:45.322 --> 00:41:58.177
um actually it was pretty cool i uh hearing him when he won wanted to try and sing with his voice hoarse like it was, shot, but you can still understand the words.

00:41:59.217 --> 00:42:11.010
And I heard him do a slow tune, I forgot, I think it might be in the documentary that we did on him, but I thought it was pretty unique the way he sung that blues song with the raspy voice.

00:42:11.891 --> 00:42:18.217
Yeah, I gotta say, man, yeah, I mean, like, you know, just because his voice was messed up didn't stop him from talking, that's for sure.

00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:19.619
If he had...

00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.702
if he had something to tell you, man, he'd tell you.

00:42:21.762 --> 00:42:58.661
I remember when I was, the first time I met him, actually, first time I met him, he called me on stage when I was 13, and I was up there on the bandstand, and somebody from the audience, an African-American gentleman yelled out, not bad for a white boy, and Cotton brought the band, I mean, to a whisper all the way down and started telling this guy from the stage, man, just kind of, you know, telling him what's up, and he told him, you know, he says, I ran away from home when I was nine years old, live with Sonny Boy, and he says, this young man here he says the blues isn't black the blues isn't yellow it ain't purple it's a feeling and this young man here has got it so I don't play that race stuff

00:43:01.144 --> 00:43:02.545
yeah and he said that about you

00:43:02.927 --> 00:43:12.838
yeah yeah he said about me but like at the time you know I'm 13 years old I wasn't really hip to what was going on but you know it was very like I said Cotton Man if he had something to say he'll say it

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.422
and in 2006 he was inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame

00:43:19.545 --> 00:43:19.646
music

00:43:31.362 --> 00:44:05.768
another thing talking about his harmonica playing he was a great chromatic player and uh you know he used it a lot songs such as 24 hours too long so it's a great slow one he did so he played a lot of chromatic so Do you know when he started playing and he wanted to make sure he used it a lot?

00:44:06.128 --> 00:44:06.349
Man,

00:44:06.409 --> 00:44:11.054
I really don't know when he started playing the chromatic, but it was powerful.

00:44:11.213 --> 00:44:16.257
Everything that guy did on the harp was powerful, but I'm not really sure when he really picked it up.

00:44:16.998 --> 00:44:24.985
I'm sure maybe probably with Muddy, but obviously we don't have any recordings of early, early cotton on chromatic or anything like that.

00:44:25.246 --> 00:44:27.688
Did you see him playing chromatic much, Kenny?

00:44:28.228 --> 00:44:31.490
I see him playing, but you know, a lot of the blues guys, they...

00:44:32.271 --> 00:44:52.474
was a little hesitant about grabbing uh the the chromatic something about the chromatic was a little intimidating but they would still take it and play it uh so i didn't see him play a lot of it uh but he did play he did play chromatic and i really enjoyed it when he played it but he didn't play it much

00:44:53.335 --> 00:45:04.626
uh and you mentioned that we've touched on this this documentary so the bonnie blue documentary which was made in 2024 and released in 2025 so james montgomery i think was a sort of the driving force putting this together.

00:45:04.686 --> 00:45:10.291
And so, you know, this documentary came out and, uh, you know, obviously tells a story of a, of his life.

00:45:10.431 --> 00:45:10.831
Well, I'm,

00:45:10.992 --> 00:45:23.603
I'm in the documentary to, uh, I flew up to Boston and John, um, James and, um, and the rest of the guys, uh, who played with James from Chicago and different artists.

00:45:24.322 --> 00:45:31.949
And, uh, also his, um, his lady who was with him when he passed away, Jackie, we was all sitting around.

00:45:32.353 --> 00:45:34.795
you know, just talking about James himself.

00:45:34.876 --> 00:45:39.659
And then all of a sudden I thought about James' old girlfriend, D.O.

00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:40.141
Phillips.

00:45:41.081 --> 00:45:42.222
And she's still around.

00:45:42.282 --> 00:45:43.403
She's down in Florida.

00:45:43.563 --> 00:45:49.829
And she was like a hippie back in the 60s and 70s with James and would hang around.

00:45:49.869 --> 00:45:51.911
And she was with him all the time.

00:45:51.990 --> 00:46:01.518
So I phoned her up and she brought a lot to the table for that documentary because she knew all the stories.

00:46:02.260 --> 00:46:05.023
I was a part of the documentary too, which was a big honor.

00:46:05.704 --> 00:46:14.952
And especially being a young kid, being around all these guys, you know, Paul Osher and Kenny here and, and, and, you know, Portnoy and Estrin and stuff.

00:46:14.974 --> 00:46:26.365
And, and then the whole band that was, that used to back Cotton Rico and all those guys, man, just being a, being a part of that and hearing from these, these stories and, and stuff that, that didn't make the documentary though.

00:46:26.385 --> 00:46:36.496
I'm glad it didn't make the documentary, but stuff that just kind of was, was interesting to hear more about Cotton's life, you know, And that documentary is still available on Amazon Prime.

00:46:36.536 --> 00:46:39.840
And that's a fantastic, fantastic documentary.

00:46:40.501 --> 00:46:41.302
Yeah, fantastic.

00:46:41.362 --> 00:46:42.242
Yeah, well done, guys.

00:46:42.782 --> 00:46:43.483
Put that together.

00:46:43.543 --> 00:46:45.746
So yeah, people go and check that out.

00:46:45.987 --> 00:46:48.329
Cotton is like getting run over by a freight train.

00:46:49.130 --> 00:46:51.552
Cotton's tone was in your face.

00:46:52.873 --> 00:46:54.315
It just slams into you.

00:46:56.177 --> 00:47:00.742
On a Saturday night, there would be 40 clubs in Chicago that would have live blues.

00:47:01.643 --> 00:47:19.001
So sadly, then we'll talk about his passing so he died in 2017 ultimately from pneumonia and yeah he died in Austin Texas where he moved to in his later life and he was age 81 when he died what do we know about that his last few years in Austin Texas

00:47:19.663 --> 00:48:09.436
yeah I mean I spent some time at his house down there in Austin well before he passed away actually Paul Osher lived three doors down from him and so I'd go and I'd day and sleep at Paul's house and we'd wake up every morning and drive and walk down to Cotton's and Cotton would have eggs and toast ready for us in the morning so we'd have breakfast in the morning and then we'd sit there at the dinner table and talk until about 4.35 in the morning and every now and again we'd go and get barbecue and bring it back to the house or Jacqueline his wife would go get barbecue but when we used to get barbecue man we'd walk into a barbecue restaurant with Cotton and the owner would just be enamored that Cotton's in his place, and he'd bring us pounds and pounds of brisket and ribs.

00:48:10.097 --> 00:48:11.077
There was only four of us.

00:48:11.177 --> 00:48:18.005
It was me, Osher, Jacqueline, who's kind of a petite lady in nature, and Cotton.

00:48:18.224 --> 00:48:20.186
We would have enough food to feed an army.

00:48:21.148 --> 00:48:23.391
We spent a lot of time together there in Cotton's house.

00:48:24.652 --> 00:48:25.512
He loved Austin.

00:48:26.014 --> 00:48:27.434
I don't know what took him down there.

00:48:27.474 --> 00:48:28.175
I really don't.

00:48:28.596 --> 00:48:35.003
But I know towards the end of his life, I know a lot of people like Jimmy Vaughn were very involved in visiting him in the hospital.

00:48:35.023 --> 00:48:40.748
A lot of people in that local scene down there spent a lot of time checking in with him and whatnot.

00:48:41.389 --> 00:48:49.858
The last time I saw him was at his 80th surprise birthday party, which was pretty neat, which was a year before, but I kept in contact with him on the phone quite often.

00:48:49.898 --> 00:48:57.086
Towards the end of his life, I think that when he left us, he was content with everything he did.

00:48:57.106 --> 00:48:57.146
Do

00:48:58.728 --> 00:49:00.911
you know anything about those last years?

00:49:01.251 --> 00:49:02.032
Yeah, I was there

00:49:02.032 --> 00:49:05.054
I was there toward the end.

00:49:05.355 --> 00:49:07.396
We stayed close to each other.

00:49:07.436 --> 00:49:09.097
We'd phone him up and talk to him.

00:49:09.918 --> 00:49:15.704
Me and James, we just had a great life or time together once we got to know each other.

00:49:16.605 --> 00:49:18.246
He was a great cook as well.

00:49:19.027 --> 00:49:22.469
James didn't complain a lot toward the end.

00:49:23.570 --> 00:49:25.873
He just dealt with what he was dealing with.

00:49:26.432 --> 00:49:29.516
He wasn't the type of guy that would complain.

00:49:29.556 --> 00:49:31.577
He'd say, what it is is what it is, man.

00:49:32.161 --> 00:49:32.541
You know?

00:49:33.762 --> 00:49:34.804
Good attitude, yeah.

00:49:35.244 --> 00:49:38.166
So, I mean, did he have a nice house down in Austin?

00:49:38.286 --> 00:49:46.074
I'm sort of asking, you know, did he reap some benefits from his career or, you know, did he earn some money or, you know, how well did he do?

00:49:46.094 --> 00:49:46.134
Oh,

00:49:46.815 --> 00:49:52.079
man, he lived in like a, you know, 16-bedroom, 8-bathroom palace, man.

00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:54.902
No, I'm just kidding.

00:49:54.922 --> 00:50:00.126
It was a very humble, modest, 2-bedroom, 2-bath home, you know.

00:50:00.407 --> 00:50:02.128
But he did okay out of his career, did he?

00:50:02.128 --> 00:50:04.911
or was he struggling through his career?

00:50:04.931 --> 00:50:05.010
Well,

00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:11.117
he struggled for a while, but then after him and Jackie got together, Jackie grabbed the whole of everything.

00:50:11.137 --> 00:50:17.003
He went on to do real well right on out of here, you know, financially as well.

00:50:17.543 --> 00:50:18.985
Jackie was his manager, wasn't she?

00:50:19.487 --> 00:50:28.775
Yeah, and Jacqueline got with him in the 90s, and she became his road manager and all that good stuff.

00:50:29.237 --> 00:50:30.958
She saved that guy's life.

00:50:30.978 --> 00:50:37.204
I heard some stories of her going into houses in the 90s in Chicago and pulling them out of some really rough areas.

00:50:38.085 --> 00:50:43.072
She's, like I said, pretty small in stature and she will whoop anybody's ass.

00:50:44.092 --> 00:50:52.402
But she really, really kept Cotton alive and really helped him through the later parts of his life and she's doing great.

00:50:52.621 --> 00:50:54.264
I just saw her, like I said, a few weeks ago.

00:50:54.304 --> 00:50:56.706
I went down there and spent some time with her.

00:50:56.746 --> 00:50:58.568
She's doing really good.

00:50:59.228 --> 00:51:01.451
So, I mean, we've talked about his harmonica playing.

00:51:01.510 --> 00:51:31.983
Obviously, he's a whole approach to music he was very fast fierce harmonica playing um you know so a big commanding presence you know lots of energy on stage and so he's a great showman yeah he used to say boogie boogie boogie yeah that's kind of one of his uh one of the things he'd say on stage yeah one of his yeah boogie time i mean talking about some of his uh some of your favorite tracks of his then uh what would you guys pick out as some of your favorite um songs of uh of cotton's i like rocket 88 yeah a real signature harmonica instrumental yeah

00:51:31.983 --> 00:51:48.557
And I'm going to

00:51:48.978 --> 00:51:59.588
go off the beaten path, and I'm going to say something that's not even really there's any harmonica on that, and that's the first record he did, the first recording, Cotton Crop Blues, just him and Pat Hare.

00:51:59.628 --> 00:52:08.923
To me, that's If somebody comes up to me from a different world, like Mars, and says, can you show me blues?

00:52:08.963 --> 00:52:10.465
That's the first thing I'm going to show them.

00:52:10.505 --> 00:52:18.172
Cotton Crop Blues is one of the most powerful, the deepest song I think that's ever, one of the deepest songs that's ever been recorded.

00:52:20.253 --> 00:52:35.708
I want I'm

00:52:39.871 --> 00:52:40.873
talking harmonica.

00:52:41.193 --> 00:52:44.416
I say the stuff from Chicago Blues today is some of the greatest stuff.

00:52:44.757 --> 00:52:50.123
There's also a lot of rare 45s that were released of Cotton playing.

00:52:50.182 --> 00:52:57.331
Cotton has a song called Complete Disorder that I actually just reported about a month ago that's coming out on my next record.

00:52:57.931 --> 00:52:59.753
Not many people have heard it.

00:53:00.094 --> 00:53:01.355
It's a fantastic song.

00:53:01.394 --> 00:53:03.101
He's kills it on the harmonica.

00:53:03.282 --> 00:53:05.311
It's probably from the mid-60s.

00:53:31.681 --> 00:53:33.565
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that Cotton did.

00:53:33.864 --> 00:53:35.688
Even in the funk era,00:53:36.188 --> 00:53:37.931


there's some great grooves in there, man.00:53:37.971 --> 00:53:39.713


Absolutely, yeah.00:53:40.193 --> 00:53:42.818


And the harmonica, a big driving force for a lot of those songs.00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:46.784


He played a lot of repetitive stuff, really driving it through, didn't he?00:53:50.829 --> 00:53:50.909


Yeah.00:54:05.793 --> 00:54:08.376


And what about, you know, what he meant to you guys personally?00:54:08.416 --> 00:54:11.778


Obviously, you both knew him really well, and he was important to both of you, yeah?00:54:12.320 --> 00:54:13.661


Very much, very much.00:54:13.721 --> 00:54:18.344


He just become close family, close-knit to the Neal family.00:54:19.186 --> 00:54:26.811


And like I said, before I met him, you know, he went through his life and growing with his career.00:54:27.313 --> 00:54:31.175


But after I met him in 76, we stayed together until the end.00:54:31.675 --> 00:54:34.079


And I used to watch him on Mondays.00:54:34.998 --> 00:54:38.963


Buddy Guy had a nightclub in Chicago called Checkerboard Lounge.00:54:39.923 --> 00:54:49.514


And every Monday, 10 o'clock in the morning, all the musicians that come off the road for the weekend was show up at Checkerboard Lounge.00:54:50.295 --> 00:54:55.780


And it was what we call cut heads when everybody tried to outdo the next guy.00:54:56.280 --> 00:55:04.688


James would come in, you know, we'll be drinking all day and eating red beans and ham hocks and playing the blues.00:55:05.570 --> 00:55:14.722


And man, when James would walk in and if it was harmonica players in there, he would be, that was his moment to cut heads.00:55:15.702 --> 00:55:21.090


He would get up on stage and blow the harmonica like if they was playing him$100,000 to do that show.00:55:22.251 --> 00:55:25.076


And nobody wanted to go up and play after he finished.00:55:27.297 --> 00:55:28.898


They don't want to follow Dane.00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:33.643


I met him as a young kid and he really took me under his wing.00:55:34.364 --> 00:55:38.887


I remember when I saw him when I was like 16 and he was at Hubert on that tour.00:55:38.927 --> 00:55:44.793


He saw that I was playing a bunch of plastic comb owners and he said, man, you got to get these wood comb.00:55:44.813 --> 00:55:45.893


You got to play marine bands.00:55:46.074 --> 00:55:47.014


That's how you get your tone.00:55:47.034 --> 00:55:47.956


You got to get the wood comb.00:55:48.516 --> 00:55:56.603


So I went out and I bought, maybe my dad bought, I shouldn't say I bought, but I ended up getting a whole set of marine bands.00:55:56.784 --> 00:55:59.472


And then I saw a couple of years later and he was on the side elves.00:56:00.454 --> 00:56:02.121


And I was a smart mouth kid.00:56:02.161 --> 00:56:07.192


I said, man, what do you, you know, you told me to get all these freaking, you know, wood color monitors.00:56:07.552 --> 00:56:09.574


And now you're sitting here playing these plastic ones.00:56:09.653 --> 00:56:11.135


He goes, yeah, but I get these for free.00:56:12.556 --> 00:56:19.762


Cotton shared a lot of stuff with me that I can tell you a hundred percent that he wouldn't share with many other people.00:56:19.802 --> 00:56:24.646


Uh, I think, which is, you know, he, I think he trusted me, you know, and, and we would talk regularly.00:56:24.686 --> 00:56:30.893


And I remember one time, uh, towards the end of his life, he, he ended our conversation with, with something.00:56:30.952 --> 00:57:03.226


And I ended up talking to his wife later and I go, I go, did he just say I love you man and she goes yeah and I go and I said put him back on the phone hold on and I say hey I love you too and he goes I love you man yeah yeah I love you you know and to me that just like you know I looked at him as a mentor of course and I grew up listening to him but here's Cotton telling me that he loves me and it's like it was deeper you know like Kenny said man he became family and that's what Cotton was man and you know he's family00:57:03.586 --> 00:57:14.938


I mean it's incredible you know that you say you're a 13 year old white kid right going to him and for him to take you under his wing and everything I mean what did he do that with other people or do you just have a special relationship or00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:34.960


I mean there was one other kid that's still around he was actually just on American Idol this season his name's Josh King Josh King met Cotton when he was a little kid too and King was a little bit more forward he went in Cotton's dressing room one time and said I can sing hoochie coochie man you know it's all like that.00:57:34.981 --> 00:57:36.342


And so Cotton said, yeah.00:57:36.862 --> 00:57:38.264


He says, you're going to like the way I sing.00:57:38.304 --> 00:57:40.226


And I guess Cotton brought him on stage too.00:57:40.246 --> 00:57:57.704


And he's a young white kid too from North Carolina.00:57:58.666 --> 00:58:04.371


But Josh really, Josh is doing more of the Michael Bubay stuff today and he plays piano.00:58:04.431 --> 00:58:08.697


and harmonica and there's more kind of pop singing nowadays.00:58:08.777 --> 00:58:10.958


But yeah, Cotton helped a lot of people, man.00:58:11.018 --> 00:58:15.684


I mean, he was with Janis Joplin, writing songs with Janis Joplin and doing stuff with her.00:58:15.704 --> 00:58:18.246


I think there's a lot of young folks at Cotton.00:58:18.786 --> 00:58:20.068


That was kind of his MO, you know.00:58:20.289 --> 00:58:22.992


He helped out as many people as I could, the next generation.00:58:23.572 --> 00:58:29.539


Yeah, I mean, even all the way back into Stevie Ray Vaughan and Jimmy Vaughan and then Steve Miller.00:58:29.579 --> 00:58:40.755


All those guys had successful careers and they still Bill would call Cotton and check in with them, and I remember being there at Cotton's house, and Steve Miller called just to say hello.00:58:40.775 --> 00:58:50.313


All these guys were young kids at the time, and Cotton gave them a platform to step up a little bit.00:58:52.545 --> 00:59:00.952


i'm still blowing up and down the road it just wasn't my time to00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:36.831


go yeah so we'll we'll just get on now to the last section though and just talk about gear so uh the gear that you use and what we know about that so we mentioned there about he played honing marine bands and he moved across to playing uh zydles so i've been talking to uh I don't think it was just that he was free.00:59:36.891 --> 00:59:42.719


Apparently he was pretty enthusiastic about it and really enjoyed the Silver Reeds and the 1847.00:59:44.322 --> 00:59:46.543


I'm, I'm signed, uh, to Holder.00:59:46.563 --> 00:59:55.632


So, but you know, when he passed away, I went over there, down there and, uh, for the funeral and stuff.00:59:55.672 --> 00:59:57.934


And I helped Jacqueline go through all of his harmonicas.00:59:58.614 --> 01:00:00.556


She gave me a bunch of his harps too and stuff.01:00:00.576 --> 01:00:03.177


So, I mean, there's a bunch of Marine bands that he had.01:00:03.579 --> 01:00:11.485


He was with Suzuki for like six months or some, some very short time after he was with owner and he didn't really care for those harps.01:00:11.545 --> 01:00:18.010


And then he just, uh, started playing more of the, uh, Yeah, he got on Seidel, because Seidel was really taking care of him.01:00:18.992 --> 01:00:19.172


Was01:00:19.231 --> 01:00:21.414


he a tongue-blocker or a puckerer?01:00:21.914 --> 01:00:23.496


Yeah, he tongue-blocked, definitely.01:00:23.635 --> 01:00:24.516


He definitely tongue-blocked.01:00:24.876 --> 01:00:36.427


He did also, and not many people know this, he played guitar, and he taught me the only thing he knew on guitar, there was only one song he knew, and that was Boogie Chillin', and Hooker taught him that.01:00:36.487 --> 01:00:56.096


But I remember going to his house once, and he had Pinetop Perkins piano in his house, and so I showed him a shuffle, Which, in hindsight, you know, here's this 18, 19-year-old kid showing James Cotton how to play something on the piano, you know, and I'm like, man, this guy goes around like Otis Spann and Pinetop and all these other guys, and here I am.01:00:56.577 --> 01:00:59.458


But Cotton, like, I guess, you know, he learned what I showed him.01:00:59.798 --> 01:01:08.126


He did it a couple times, and he kind of pondered on it, and then he went and got a guitar, and he showed me that song that he learned from John Lee Hooker, Boogie Chillin'.01:01:08.606 --> 01:01:10.789


So he was a talented guy, man.01:01:10.809 --> 01:01:10.829


I01:01:11.088 --> 01:01:21.561


mean, as to the harmonic positions he played, I mean, he obviously played a lot in second position he definitely played first position do we know much about other positions i don't think i heard him playing a lot of third position or oh01:01:22.043 --> 01:01:27.210


yeah man he played a lot of third position yeah blues in my sleep the one i mentioned earlier yeah of course01:01:32.438 --> 01:01:44.318


so I will tell you this.01:01:44.398 --> 01:01:46.460


I don't think he played any fourth or fifth.01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:47.201


Cool, yeah.01:01:47.221 --> 01:01:49.163


And I don't think he played any overblows, did he?01:01:49.663 --> 01:01:49.983


No.01:01:50.264 --> 01:01:50.844


Why do that?01:01:52.306 --> 01:01:52.646


Yeah, yeah.01:01:52.746 --> 01:01:55.088


He was a full-on blues player for definitely, yeah.01:01:55.407 --> 01:01:58.510


And what about his microphones and amplifiers?01:01:59.110 --> 01:02:00.932


I do know that Cotton, at the end01:02:00.952 --> 01:02:05.757


of his life, just played through a 58, a regular 58 microphone through the PA.01:02:06.197 --> 01:02:11.983


But, I mean, earlier on, when I was at, you know, a few times I've been to his house, he showed me, he had a few of his old amps.01:02:12.023 --> 01:02:19.190


He had a Bassman, an original Bass that he had taken out all the speakers in there and replaced it with one large speaker.01:02:19.230 --> 01:02:21.693


It looked like it was larger than a 15.01:02:21.753 --> 01:02:23.635


I don't know if it was like a 20-inch speaker.01:02:23.675 --> 01:02:25.076


The speaker was no longer there.01:02:25.096 --> 01:02:27.038


It was just a hole that he had cut out.01:02:27.478 --> 01:02:28.880


And so it was a basement with one speaker.01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:35.407


He also used to play a Super 6, which is a Super Reverb, but with six speakers instead of four.01:02:35.648 --> 01:02:36.648


Six 10s, I believe.01:02:37.048 --> 01:02:39.130


Sometime he would set up two of them.01:02:39.150 --> 01:02:39.911


Wow, yeah.01:02:40.132 --> 01:02:41.873


That was before my time.01:02:42.375 --> 01:02:56.210


When he was on the road and Garty his road manager was driving and stuff Garty had to lug them two amps hook and connect them every night together and when James come out on stage man he sound like a train coming through there01:02:57.010 --> 01:03:13.748


yeah he was using that mic too that Electro Voice it looked like a regular like a stick mic it looked like a 58 but it had a volume knob on the side I forgot the number of it Electro Voice 6 something but yeah he'd run that through the supers and talk about talk about power man.01:03:14.829 --> 01:03:18.592


So he didn't use the sort of traditional bullet mics too much then, did he not?01:03:18.653 --> 01:03:20.775


What about back in the 70s and that?01:03:21.536 --> 01:03:21.836


I never01:03:21.876 --> 01:03:22.538


seen him use a01:03:22.757 --> 01:03:23.018


bullet01:03:23.038 --> 01:03:23.318


mic.01:03:23.958 --> 01:03:25.701


Yeah, I never seen him use that bullet.01:03:26.661 --> 01:03:29.344


Did he sing through the same mic that he played harmonica through?01:03:30.226 --> 01:03:30.505


Yeah.01:03:30.806 --> 01:03:42.619


I was with Rick Estrin the other day and he told me that he saw Cotton playing through that Super 6 and he had that microphone I just mentioned plugged into the Super 6 and he would sing through the microphone and play a harp through the microphone.01:03:42.918 --> 01:03:51.494


The same one But later on, like when he wasn't singing, he would just play through a 58 straight into the PA, which at that point, you're at the mercy of the sound man.01:03:52.034 --> 01:03:58.226


Yeah, but interesting that he didn't go for the typical, you know, tube amp and, you know, sort of crystal mics and things and CIs.01:03:58.666 --> 01:04:01.490


Yeah, I mean, he did have a collection when I was going through all those harps.01:04:01.572 --> 01:04:04.036


I found a bunch of microphones and stuff.01:04:04.056 --> 01:04:06.820


And I think those are just mics that people have given him over the years.01:04:07.746 --> 01:04:09.467


you know, that he had stored away.01:04:10.027 --> 01:04:12.570


Yeah, he had a bunch of stuff that people would give him.01:04:12.670 --> 01:04:14.771


Jimmy Vaughn got him a custom guitar.01:04:15.273 --> 01:04:20.016


Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff that Cotton was given over the years, and he never threw it away, man.01:04:20.297 --> 01:04:25.380


He'd walk in the house, and he had all that stuff either displayed, or he knew where it was, for sure.01:04:25.981 --> 01:04:27.682


And what about any effects?01:04:27.742 --> 01:04:31.286


Did he use anything at all, any pedals, or just some delay or reverb?01:04:31.746 --> 01:04:33.088


Hell no, he didn't need that.01:04:33.307 --> 01:04:34.409


It is an effects pedal.01:04:35.349 --> 01:04:36.251


Cotton didn't...01:04:36.831 --> 01:04:37.711


This is playing...01:04:37.711 --> 01:04:39.293


That's the effects right there.01:04:39.333 --> 01:04:43.677


They should make a pedal called the Cotton, because he invented that stuff, man.01:04:43.996 --> 01:04:45.998


I mean, he got such a big pile for sound, though, isn't he?01:04:46.059 --> 01:04:47.940


So all that through the PA is incredible, yeah.01:04:48.041 --> 01:04:57.409


I was playing with him one night, and he kept telling the sound guy, that's when he was playing the 58, to give him more in the monitors.01:04:58.750 --> 01:05:07.677


And he must have did it four or five times, and after he couldn't get it, he had a full bottle of beer on the amp.01:05:08.161 --> 01:05:13.186


And he took the beer and he poured it into the monitors.01:05:13.206 --> 01:05:15.268


I could bleed my eyes when I saw that.01:05:15.288 --> 01:05:20.873


The guy wouldn't give him what he wanted, so he got attention after he poured that beer in the monitors.01:05:21.934 --> 01:05:22.835


Great to speak to you guys.01:05:22.875 --> 01:05:27.458


I mean, have you got any last comments you want to say about the great James Cotton?01:05:28.739 --> 01:05:35.365


I mean, you know, there's some cool stories that he would tell around the kitchen table, being with Walter and stuff.01:05:35.385 --> 01:05:41.692


Because those guys, I mean, even though they were both with Muddy and there was kind of some weird thing there, but those guys hung out a lot.01:05:42.632 --> 01:05:48.139


Cotton got to see a lot of stuff in Chicago that was very interesting.01:05:48.338 --> 01:05:59.130


He told me once that Buddy was doing a band practice or something and Cotton was there in the club and Little Walter was outside and he saw this guy eating some chicken wings and throwing the chicken wings.01:05:59.490 --> 01:06:00.851


You buy chicken wings on the street.01:06:01.432 --> 01:06:06.577


And this guy was eating chicken wings and throwing the bones over his shoulder and they were hitting Little Walter's car.01:06:07.559 --> 01:06:11.844


And I guess Walter went inside and went to Cotton.01:06:11.884 --> 01:06:14.447


They thought that Cotton was more cool and level-headed.01:06:14.467 --> 01:06:19.771


They asked Cotton, hey man, can you come out and talk to this guy and tell him to stop throwing chicken wings in my car?01:06:20.293 --> 01:06:26.400


So Cotton came out the front door and started talking to this guy, hey man, why are you throwing chicken wings on the man's Cadillac, you know?01:06:27.059 --> 01:06:38.032


And little Walter, as Cotton was talking to this guy from the front, little Walter came out the side door with a baseball bat and hit this guy over the back of the head and the guy went forward into the street and got hit by a city ball.01:06:38.032 --> 01:06:38.351


bus.01:06:39.012 --> 01:06:40.875


Yeah, Cotton and Walter, they took off running.01:06:41.675 --> 01:06:56.911


Another story he told me is when Wolf was in the grocery store, his wife stayed in the car, and she cleaned out the car and found some ladies' underwear, and Wolf had two bags of groceries, one in each hand, and she was waiting at the station wagon with a double-barrel shotgun.01:06:57.552 --> 01:07:10.666


Blasted Wolf as Wolf started running away, and so Wolf had to go to the hospital, and Cotton went to visit him, and they're sitting there picking buckshot out of Wolf's ass with tweezers, and Cotton says he walked you can hear Wolf screaming from down the hallway.01:07:13.048 --> 01:07:21.739


There's a lot of other stories that Cotton told me and a lot of stories that I experienced with Cotton that I will probably take to my grave.01:07:22.259 --> 01:07:25.362


Stuff that he trusted me with, but some good stuff01:07:25.402 --> 01:07:25.902


for sure.01:07:25.943 --> 01:07:29.025


Yeah, he certainly had a colorful life, yeah.01:07:29.907 --> 01:07:44.483


I mean, it's interesting that as well, because I think maybe some people think of him as kind of second generation, but we talked about, you know, he started playing with Howling Wolf in 1950 you too he was really there in the peak time right he was contemporary of uh of sonny boy and little walter and you know those guys yeah01:07:45.364 --> 01:08:11.110


yeah absolutely man he was he was you know he might be second generation but he was with all the first generation guys and and if we're talking about generations it's like well who's first was it robert johnson or was it charlie patton or you know what's what's considered first or second but you know he was he was definitely first generation of chicago blues that's for sure but yeah i mean he just he was surrounding himself and he was a young guy back then you know he's around himself, all these guys that he grew up listening to on the radio.01:08:11.851 --> 01:08:12.632


Any final words01:08:12.672 --> 01:08:13.273


from you, Kenny?01:08:14.034 --> 01:08:18.720


I just really like going to his house because he was a great cook.01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:23.064


He could make the, you know, the smothered neck bones.01:08:23.144 --> 01:08:25.346


He could make the greens.01:08:25.846 --> 01:08:28.710


He'd make a big pot of hot water cornbread.01:08:29.190 --> 01:08:35.296


And I mean, he just go in the kitchen and cook this stuff up for seven or eight people like was nothing to it.01:08:35.757 --> 01:08:37.460


He just had that touch.01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:45.225


When he got in the kitchen and I remember him from that, you know, going to the house, having, sitting down, eating his cooking.01:08:45.265 --> 01:08:46.547


Fantastic.01:08:46.627 --> 01:08:51.112


And the, uh, certainly not to cook up a storm on that with his music as well.01:08:51.192 --> 01:08:54.314


So, uh, so thanks so much for joining me today.01:08:54.333 --> 01:08:58.837


Uh, Kenny Neal and Kyle Roland and talking about the James Cotton and sharing all your memories and stories with him.01:08:58.917 --> 01:09:02.301


Sounds like he was a great guy and, uh, you knew him really well yet.01:09:02.822 --> 01:09:03.061


Yeah.01:09:03.561 --> 01:09:03.903


It's all01:09:04.002 --> 01:09:04.502


good, man.01:09:04.542 --> 01:09:06.965


I enjoyed my time I had with him.01:09:07.810 --> 01:09:10.391


Yeah, thanks for having us.01:09:10.431 --> 01:09:19.399


You know, I think that myself being young, I think all I can do is try to share these memories and legacy of these guys that I learned from as a kid.01:09:19.699 --> 01:09:24.625


And Cotton has definitely left an imprint not only on my life, but on many other people's lives.01:09:24.704 --> 01:09:25.865


And we sure miss him.01:09:26.225 --> 01:09:26.565


Definitely.01:09:26.586 --> 01:09:31.730


And of course, people can go and watch the Bonnie Blue documentary to get some more on him, which, as you say, you guys are involved in.01:09:31.751 --> 01:09:32.470


So thanks, guys.01:09:32.671 --> 01:09:32.891


Thanks, guys.01:09:32.912 --> 01:09:33.671


Thank you very much.01:09:33.993 --> 01:09:34.432


Once again.01:09:35.094 --> 01:09:37.655


Once again, thanks to Zydle for sponsoring the podcast.01:09:37.775 --> 01:09:47.806


Be sure to check out their great range of harmonicas and products at www.zeidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zeidel Harmonicas.01:09:48.466 --> 01:09:50.670


Big thanks to Kyle and Kenny for joining me today.01:09:50.689 --> 01:09:57.077


It was an honour to speak with two guys who spent so much time with James Cotton and clearly hold him in the highest regard.01:09:57.436 --> 01:10:00.439


They both did an excellent job of maintaining Cotton's legacy.01:10:00.619 --> 01:10:01.220


Thanks guys.01:10:01.942 --> 01:10:05.324


And be sure to check out the Bonnie Blue documentary for more on Cotton.01:10:05.966 --> 01:10:14.774


Once again when preparing for a retrospective I was flooded with joyous memories as I listened to the Cotton songs that I had played along with so many times in my younger days.01:10:14.793 --> 01:10:37.274


He maybe doesn't get the credit he deserves, and he may not have been as technically gifted as some, but his playing was full of so much energy and verve that he breathed into the harp that it truly came alive in his hands, and he rightly takes his place as one of the all-time great harmonica players, and with his great long output of recordings, he is essential listening for any harmonica fan or player.01:10:37.890 --> 01:10:44.135


I'm going to finish off today with probably my all-time favourite Cotton song, the live version of How Long Can a Fool Go Wrong.01:10:44.515 --> 01:10:46.797


I put a clip of this song in an earlier podcast.01:10:47.217 --> 01:11:01.551


Here's an extended version, which this song fully merits, because Cotton plays such a long first position harmonica solo, which builds and dips and flows and builds into this tremendous crescendo, which typifies all the fervent energy of Cotton.01:11:02.110 --> 01:11:07.475


If anyone wants to work on the subtlety of their top-end first position playing, then this is the song to do it.01:11:07.855 --> 01:11:08.217


Love it.01:11:08.962 --> 01:11:14.014


From the 1976 live and on the move album.