Big Walter Horton retrospective with Tom Ball, Mudcat and Madcat

01:37 - Peter ‘Madcat’ Ruth, Michael ‘Mudcat’ Ward and Tom Ball join me for a retrospective on Walter Horton

01:50 - Madcat was last on the podcast on episode 12 of the podcast in June 2020 and met Walter when he had three lessons with him in 1967 and 1968

02:08 - Mudcat played bass in some live shows with Walter towards the end of his career and spent quite a bit of time with him

02:30 - Tom Ball was last on the podcast in January 2022 and authored the book: ‘Sourcebook of Little Walter/Big Walter Licks for Blues Harmonica’

02:49 - Tom saw a Walter perform numerous times in the mid to late 1960s in Los Angeles

03:30 - Many people have Big Walter as their favourite blues harmonica player, and Madcat says Willie Dixon said he was the best

04:00 - It’s not entirely clear when Walter was born, but it was probably 1918

04:33 - Mudcat was involved with the benefit that raised money for Walter’s gravestone, and 1918 was put onto that

04:49 - Likely born in Dooleys Island, Horn Lake, Mississippi

05:31 - He reputedly learnt harmonica from the age of five and performed on the street from a young age

05:42 - Moved to Memphis when still quite young

06:09 - There is a credit to ‘Shakey Walter’ recording with the Memphis Jug Band in 1927, but it is extremely unlikely to be Walter, who would have been less than ten years old then

06:13 - The discography information used in the podcast was put together by Stefan Wirz

06:56 - Probably Will Shade on the Memphis Jug Band recordings although Walter did play with the Memphis Jug Band sometimes

07:44 - First recording by Walter was probably with Little Buddy Doyle from 1939

09:11 - Walter made various claims to have recorded on the Memphis Jug Band to Tom and other tall stories he told to Mudcat

09:57 - Didn’t have a lot of commercial success or make much money through his music career

10:28 - Most of his work came as a sideman

10:49 - Discography shows that he didn’t record through the 1940s and may have had some health issues, or just a day job

11:03 - Avoided the draft to serve in World War II, possibly due to his eye problems

11:15 - May have spent some time in a prison camp and did drive a taxi and a tractor as jobs for a while

11:40 - He had an aversion to have a flash photographer take a picture of him

11:48 - Recorded for Sun Records in 1951, under the name of Little Walter, although that song wasn’t released until later

12:53 - Likely called himself Little Walter before he knew about the Little Walter, or at least before Little Walter was famous

13:43 - The other names he was known under was Shakey Walter and Mumbles, names which he didn’t appreciate

14:12 - The Mumbles name was probably given to him by the RPM records label, which released some fine early cuts from Walter

16:30 - It was unlikely he gained much recognition from these early RPM releases as they didn’t include his actual name, just Mumbles

17:11 - Did a lot of work as a sideman through the 1950s including with Johnny Shines in 1953, which Madcat and Tom are big fans of

18:40 - Relocated to Chicago from Memphis in 1953 and spent around a year as the harmonica player in the Muddy Waters band, losing his place with Muddy due to being unreliable

19:12 - Had issues with alcohol abuse

19:19 - According to Walter he lost the spot in Muddy’s band because he was sick but Muddy says he took a better paying gig and so Muddy let him go

19:46 - Two great songs he recorded with Muddy were She’s Alright and Sad Sad Day

20:34 - Released an album under his own name in 1954: Walter Horton and his Combo

21:16 - Doing mostly sideman work in the 1950s, probably because he was quite shy and didn’t want to be a frontman

22:01 - Walking By Myself recorded with Jimmy Rogers in 1956 which wasn’t rehearsed much

24:00 - The other song recorded at the same session has a very similar solo

24:58 - Easy, recorded in 1953 with Jimmy DeBerry is another all time classic blues harmonica song

25:46 - Southern Woman recording with Tommy Brown

26:14 - Worked with pianist Sunnyland Slim on numerous occasions, partly down to the influence of Willie Dixon, who was a big fan of Walter

27:14 - The lessons Madcat had with Walter in 1966/7 after having heard him on the album: Chicago The Blues Today

27:56 - Madcat had his youth group hire Walter and Johnny Shines (and a young Iggy Pop on drums) and that was the first time he heard him play live

29:22 - It was from the gig that Madcat heard Walter gave lessons and he tried to contact him several times before arranging the first one

30:47 - Took a second lesson about six months later and another six months after that

30:53 - Madcat tells how Walter would show him how to play something without much explanation

31:54 - Mudcat tells of how Walter showed how to ‘break in’ a harmonica by breathing cigarette smoke through it (not recommended!)

32:33 - At that time Walter kept his harmonicas and mic in a leather doctors bag, with the harmonicas stored in a haphazard way

33:05 - The mic Walter had at that time was a bottom of the line Shure high impedance mic

33:18 - Years later Madcat saw him with a different mic every time

33:23 - When Mudcat played with him at the end of his career Walter would be meticulous in wrapping his cable and mic when tidying it away

34:04 - Discography shows that he didn’t record anything between 1957 and 1963 before enjoying a resurgence during the blues boom of the mid-1960s

34:55 - Travelled to Europe to play in the American Folk Blues Festivals on four occasions

35:10 - Played with the Willie Dixon Allstar band

35:27 - Released The Soul of the Blues Harmonica under his own name in 1964, which contained his first version of La Cucaracha

36:01 - The Soul of the Blues Harmonica came out on Argo Records, a division of Chess Records, so the Chess brothers had become interested in Walter

36:21 - The Soul of the Blues Harmonica had quite a range of genres, so wasn’t just blues

37:15 - The song Christine was named after his daughter

37:46 - Recorded at the same party in Germany as Sonny Boy Williamson II, with the tracks from both appearing on the Solo Harp album

38:34 - Tom had read that the only recording of Walter playing chromatic harmonica is on the Solo Harp album

39:19 - Mudcat says he did play chromatic and Kim Wilson used to tease him that he never used the button

40:03 - Mudcat says he played chromatic on one gig they played together but he didn’t usually bring it with him

40:10 - Charlie Musselwhite appears with Walter on the album: Chicago The Blues Today, which was an influential album to a lot of harmonica players (Junior Wells also on the album)

41:28 - Walter toured Europe with Big Mama Thornton

41:53 - Recorded an album with the original Fleetwood Mac

42:58 - Made an album with Carey Bell in 1972, with Carey Bell something of a protege of Walters

44:14 - Walter claimed to Tom to have taught harmonica to most of the great players, including in an interview where he discusses doing so with Sonny Boy II

45:26 - Sonny Boy II was older than Walter, probably by six years, and they did know each other when they were in Memphis

46:05 - The 1972 album recorded with the Hot Cottage band has some great tracks

47:45 - Album An Offer You Can’t Refuse, a double-sided album with Paul Butterfield. Issued in 1972 by Red Lightning from two separate recording sessions in 1964 by Swedish radio: Horton from the Sutherland Hotel, Chicago. Butterfield from Big Johns, Chicago

48:30 - Walter worked a lot with Johnny Nicholas later in the 1970s, including on the Fine Cuts album in 1978

50:57 - Played on the 1978 Muddy Water’s album, I’m Ready, which won a Grammy

51:42 - Story of Johnny Nicholas travelling over the border into Canada when Walter was carrying a gun

53:17 - Appears in the 1980 movie, The Blues Brothers, although it’s not actually him playing, it’s Joe Berson, who was a student of Walter

54:09 - Walter’s playing wasn’t used in The Blues Brothers because he was erratic, and not getting the takes down

54:16 - Was going to be Muddy Waters band in The Blues Brothers but Muddy was sick and couldn’t do it

54:22 - Mudcat tells of a film made, which wasn’t released (available on YouTube) where Walter is interviewed in Ronnie Earls apartment

54:56 - More on Walter’s aversion to cameras and the impact this had on The Blues Brothers movie

55:46 - Another concern with the camera was that he would be fined if the Musicians Union saw a picture of him playing

56:59 - Played some live concerts with Mudcat on bass, the last one of which was captured and released as the Live At The Knickerbocker album in 1980, for which Walter didn’t receive any money (nor the band)

58:46 - Mudcat says playing bass in the band with Walter was one of the biggest thrills he had in his musical career

58:56 - Mudcat tells us what it was like to play with Walter, who he describes as ‘charming’

59:34 - The time Walter played a gig sitting with someone he knew in the audience

01:00:39 - Walter wasn’t a strong band leader, when playing with Mudcat at least, who just had to work out what Walter started playing

01:01:40 - The album with Mudcat was recorded just one year before he died, but Walter was still in good shape then

01:01:55 - Mudcat tells a story when Walter turned up for a gig all beat-up and Walter told him whenever he came back from touring his son would beat him up and steal his money

01:03:16 - Walter lived in a violent neighbourhood and Mudcat was advised not to walk around there

01:03:48 - Was a quiet man who let his playing do the talking

01:04:18 - Sometimes he didn’t feel like playing and he refused to do so and sometimes would do varied songs and he was full of music

01:04:43 - Walter’s style of harmonica playing was that he played with the melody, whereas Little Walter played across the melody. So they approached the structure of the song differently

01:05:15 - Didn’t always play a straight twelve bar, so band would have to watch him to keep the song structure together

01:05:31 - Tom’s Sourcebook of Walter Horton licks was just to tab out Walter’s playing, and didn’t compare the approaches of Big and Little Walter

01:06:23 - Both Big and Little Walter were tongue blockers and Tom is a pucker player so didn’t feel qualified to teach their tongue blocking techniques

01:06:53 - Walter did plenty of singing in his career and he certainly could carry a tune

01:07:21 - Sang with the live shows with Mudcat and Walter would often sing through the harmonica mic

01:08:02 - Once again check out Bob Corritore’s website to see some great photos of Walter

01:08:21 - Favourite songs of the panel

01:08:41 - Madcat likes the songs recorded with Johnny Shines, Walking By Myself and his first position playing

01:09:50 - Tom also loves the songs with Johnny Shines and Hard Hearted Woman

01:11:41 - Walter made a lot of recordings through his career

01:12:30 - Madcat also loves all the songs from Chicago The Blues Today

01:13:04 - Mudcat likes Stockyard Blues recorded with Floyd Jones

01:14:14 - Mudcat and Jerry Portnoy saw the best live show of Walter

01:14:37 - Another couple of stories from Mudcat on Walter’s strong aversion to cameras

01:16:29 - Another similarity to Sonny Boy II who also didn’t like to be known due to the alleged stabbing he had committed in defending himself

01:16:48 - Neil’s favourite songs (besides Walking By Myself and Easy) are Blues In The Morning and Walter’s Swing

01:17:15 - Died on December 8th, 1981, probably 63 years old (depending on birth year), after returning from a European tour

01:17:51 - There are rumours he may have been murdered following a robbery

01:18:01 - Walter is buried in Restvale Cemetary, Worth, Illinois, with Mudcat helping raise the money for a headstone from a benefit concert

01:18:48 - Inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame in 1982

01:19:02 - Always played Hohner Marine Bands, and there is one etched onto his gravestone

01:19:11 - Played a Fender Bassman and possibly an Acstatic crystal mic when performing with Mudcat towards the end of his career

01:19:32 - Was using a different mic each time Tom saw him play: sometimes a Shure SM57 or 58 and a large bullet mic

01:19:56 - When Tom saw him play in the west of the US Walter was mainly using a Fender Princeton amp

01:20:16 - Seemed to be using a different rig each time Tom saw him, but his tone was always the same great tone

01:21:00 - Mudcat knows he used a Blackface Princeton, now owned by Sugar Ray Norcia

01:21:11 - Would sometimes use both a vocal mic and harmonica mic to play harmonica through

01:21:51 - The great players sounded great no matter which gear they were using

01:22:07 - Madcat also saw him seeming to play with a different amp and mic each time and Walter asked Madcat to sit him with him on several occasions

01:23:02 - Had huge hands and big lung capacity, so his body was a major part in his sound

01:23:20 - Could play his amazing vibrato with an acoustic and a bullet mic

01:24:10 - Didn’t use any effects pedals

01:24:26 - Embouchre was tongue block

01:24:35 - Madcat cites Willie Dixon as stating Big Walter was the best blues harmonica player

01:25:12 - Tom says Walter is one of the big five harmonica players, alongside Little Walter, Sonny Boy I and II and Sonny Terry, who have influenced every blues harmonica player since

01:25:42 - Mudcat says you have to hear him to understand, and that words don’t do it justice

01:25:58 - Mudcat shares a couple of the phrases Walter used a lot: “This ain’t something I heard, this is something I know”, and (when parking) “Just go back until you hear glass rattle”