Nov. 9, 2024

Paul Oscher retrospective, with Jerry Portnoy, Steve Guyger and Louis Erlanger

Jerry Portnoy, Steve Guyger and Louis Erlanger join me on episode 123, for a retrospective on Paul Oscher.
Paul was born in Brooklyn in 1947 and has a place in history as the first white player in a major black blues band, with Muddy Waters. Joining Muddy’s band gave Paul the best grounding in Chicago blues, he lived in Muddy’s house where he also learnt from the great Otis Spann. After leaving Muddy’s band Paul moved to New York and became a pivotal figure in the blues scene there. Paul put out a number of albums under his own name, with the first being Rough Stuff in 1993, up to Cool Cat in 2018. These included solo and band albums, showcasing his wide range of talents on the harmonica, and also the guitar, piano and vocals.

Links:
Website:
https://www.pauloscher.com/

Interview with Paul, by Margie Goldsmith:
https://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/paul-oscher-interview.html

Louis Erlanger Blues Blast Magazine interview:
https://www.bluesblastmagazine.com/featured-interview-louis-x-erlanger/

Videos:
Paul Oscher documentary by Jordan Haro:
https://vimeo.com/208402633

Story of Jimmy Johnson and harmonica trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFFPMYhLTt0

Paul playing piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSbAahV30Do

Playing Juke on a rack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3WJgDEN4aA

Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
--------------------------------
Blue Moon Harmonicas: https://bluemoonharmonicas.com

Support the show

01:25 - Jerry Portnoy, Steve Guyger and Louis Erlanger join the podcast for a retrospective on Paul Oscher

01:46 - Jerry was the second white harmonica player in the Muddy Waters band, after Paul Oscher

02:16 - Jerry and Steve knew Paul very well

02:27 - Louis Erlanger knew Paul from New York and produced several of his albums

03:17 - Louis is a non-harmonica playing guitarist who played with the band Mink DeVille, which Paul helped Louis join via an introduction

04:17 - Paul was born in Brooklyn in 1947 and played various types of harmonica as well as piano and guitar

04:49 - Paul first heard harmonica when he worked at a grocery store, from Jimmy Johnson, a southern medicine show harp player

05:26 - Jerry first got to know Paul when he was playing in Muddy’s band

05:59 - Paul was living at Muddy Waters house in Chicago

06:14 - Steve first became aware of Paul from the album he recorded with Muddy Waters: Live At Mr Kellys and started seeing him around New York

07:03 - Steve sat in with Paul and his band, where Paul played a lot of piano

07:19 - Jerry was at the gig at Mr Kelly’s almost every night

07:25 - Paul also played guitar at the gig Steve attended, with Paul playing guitar and harmonica when younger, attracting girls

08:37 - Paul foretold that he would play with Muddy Waters

08:49 - Paul’s first band was from age 15 with Little Jimmy Mae, and how the blues scene impressed him

09:44 - Paul was the first white player to play in a major black blues band, and the first white harmonica player with Muddy Waters

10:01 - Paul joined Muddy’s band after going to see Muddy at the Apollo Theatre in New York, sat in with the band when Big Walter didn’t show up

10:30 - When asking to join his band, Muddy said to Paul: “Can you travel” (asking Jerry the same thing when Jerry later joined Muddy’s band)

10:37 - First day touring with Muddy’s band there was guns and liquor and Paul knew he had arrived on the blues scene

11:20 - As the first white harmonica player in the Muddy Water’s band made Paul a trailblazer for white harmonica players

12:03 - Jerry says Paul was unique as a musician: with great touch, feel and time on every instrument he played

13:38 - Picked up the real authentic Chicago blues from being in the Muddy Waters band

14:00 - Time was a critical element to Paul, which is something he picked up from Otis Spann

14:53 - Jerry talks of how he regretted never having played with Otis Spann, who trained the harmonica players in Muddy’s band

15:36 - Joined Muddy’s band in 1967, age 19, stayed in Muddy’s basement in Chicago, sharing it with Otis Spann

16:24 - Was in Muddy’s band from 1968-70, and then for another short stint

16:36 - Paul and Jerry both went to Muddy’s funeral

16:45 - Was on Board of Director’s working on turning Muddy’s Chicago South Side into a museum, The Muddy Water’s Mojo Museum

18:26 - Paul did a concert later with Muddy, but as the piano player, and Bob Dylan showed up, with Muddy calling him John Dylan

19:39 - Dylan asked Jerry to join his band for the Rolling Thunder tour but Jerry decided to stay with Muddy’s band

21:26 - Paul left Muddy’s band due to ill health

21:55 - Steve got to know Paul when he moved to New York after leaving Muddy’s band

22:44 - Was playing under the name Brooklyn Slim when he moved back to New York, and played harmonica, guitar and piano, and even vibes. He could play any instrument and was a natural

24:22 - Paul had great time

25:10 - Paul brought a white audience to the black clubs of the New York blues scene

26:50 - Steve regularly drove from Philadelphia to New York to see Paul play

27:51 - Toured Europe with Louisiana Red in 1976

28:02 - Steve also did some shows with Louisiana Red

28:37 - Through the 1980s and early 1990s Paul got a degree in Criminal Justice, got married and got a day job

29:34 - Also had a degree in graphic design and created his own album covers, and was a good painter

30:30 - Released an album in 1993: Rough Stuff, which Louis helped put together

32:18 - Paul brought in Pinetop Perkins and Willie Smith for the Rough Stuff album

33:11 - 1995 released The Deep Blues of Paul Oscher album

33:25 - Knockin’ On The Devil’s Door album came after Rough Stuff

35:42 - 1999 did an album with Big Bill Morganfield (Muddy’s Waters son)

36:14 - Steve recorded with Paul, including the album from 2000: Deep In The Blues

36:49 - Louis has some more recordings of Steve and Paul which he plans to release soon

37:29 - Steve learnt how to play some songs from Jerry playing with Muddy

38:31 - Have Mercy song has Steve and Paul playing harmonica together

39:19 - Steve pays tribute to John Lee Williamson

40:55 - In 2001 married Suzan-Lori Parks, who is a playwright, with Paul influencing one of her plays which went on to win a Pulitzer Prize

41:32 - Paul knew some great card tricks

43:40 - Louis was working on a book about Paul called Alone With The Blues, but it may not get finished

45:08 - 2003 album with Hubert Sumlin: About Them Shoes, was nominated for a Grammy

45:59 - 2004 album Alone With The Blues: a solo album, as was the 2005 Down In The Delta album

46:52 - Was doing more one man shows at this time, and played Juke on a rack, and probably made his own mic for that

48:14 - Also used a foot pedal and was very particular about his sound set-up

50:14 - Paul was a big influence on a lot of musicians, including Steve and Jerry

51:03 - Down In The Delta album won an Acoustic Artist of the Year award and an Acoustic Album of the Year award at the 2006 Blues Music Awards

52:45 - The need to always leave the tape running during a recording session

54:16 - Moved to Austin, Texas, in 2011, where he inadvertently became neighbours with James Cotton

55:17 - Last album was Cool Cat in 2018, which was quite jazzy

58:38 - Paul always had a strong interest in jazzy blues

59:58 - Paul died in 2021 from the Coronavirus

01:01:25 - 2024 album release: Live At The Tombs Detention Center, NYC - from 1980s, which Louis released, really shows what Paul was all about live

01:03:34 - Jerry had to leave the interview before the end, so final words about Paul from him, and how Paul will feature heavily in the book he has coming out in 2025

01:04:51 - Paul didn’t consider himself a singer but kept on singing after trying it in a club once

01:06:07 - Some of the awards Paul received for his music

01:06:24 - Recorded plenty of chromatic harmonica, which he started early in his career

01:07:04 - Co-wrote a tune with famous rapper Mos Def, and Paul thought rap music was modern equivalent of the blues

01:08:44 - Played Hohner harmonicas

01:09:01 - Paul claimed to have come up with the idea of the low F harmonica after suggesting it to Hohner

01:10:01 - Gotta Go Now song which Steve and Paul recorded together

01:10:35 - Embouchre was mainly tongue block

01:11:02 - Amps and mics: had numerous, one of which was Gibson Skylark

01:12:05 - Made extensive use of the bass harp

01:13:18 - Every note he played was intended

01:14:19 - Last thoughts on Paul from Steve and Louis

WEBVTT

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Jerry Portnoy, Steve Geiger and Lewis Erlanger join me on episode 123 for a retrospective on Paul Osher.

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Paul was born in Brooklyn in 1947 and has a place in history as the first white player in a major black blues band with Muddy Waters.

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Joining Muddy's band gave Paul the best grounding in Chicago blues.

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He lived in Muddy's house where he also learnt from the great Otis Spann.

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After leaving Muddy's band, Paul moved to New York and became a pivotal figure in the blues scene there.

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Paul put out a number of blues albums under his own name, with the first being Rough Stuff in 1993, up to Cool Cat in 2018.

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These included solo and band songs, showcasing his wide range of talents on the harmonica and also the guitar, piano and vocals.

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This podcast is sponsored by Zidel Harmonicas.

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Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.zidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Zidel Harmonicas

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music music

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Hello Steve Geiger, Jerry Portnoy and Louis Erlanger and welcome to this retrospective about Paul Osher.

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Hey Neil, great to be with you.

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So Jerry and Steve we've had on the podcast before.

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Jerry you were on back in August 2020 on episode 20 so welcome back and of course you were I think the second white player with the Muddy Waters band and Paul Osher was the first which we will get into later but that so you followed on from him.

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Yeah, well, I wasn't the second white person.

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I was the second white harmonica player.

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He also had Hollywood Fats and Bob Margolin playing guitars before me.

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Okay, and Steve Geig, of course.

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So we had you on in episode 82 in March 23, so about 18 months ago now, so welcome back, Steve.

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And both Gerry and Steve, you knew Paul really well, so hence the reason you guys are on to talk about Paul Osher today, so it'll be great to hear your times with Paul and what you knew about him, so that'll be great.

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And our third guest, we have Lewis Erlanger.

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So, Lewis, I think you knew Paul since he was a teenager, and you sort of co-produced quite a few of his albums, didn't you?

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That's how...

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you knew him very well from his music that way yeah

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yeah well I used to Paul used to play around New York well I knew about Paul even before that because I saw him with Muddy very early on but I met him in New York when he was playing around and you know I booked him at a college I was at and you know got to know him over the years then we worked on a number of records together yeah I knew about him even since I was about 13 because I had a friend who knew Paul and he would tell me these stories about Paul that the guy was sort of an icon in my mind before I met him so yeah I've known him a long time.

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So do you play the harmonica yourself Lewis?

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No no I'm a guitar player I work with a group called Mink DeVille that's sort of my claim to fame.

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Actually, Paul helped me out.

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One of the things, Mick DeVille had some songs co-written with Doc Palmas, the songwriter who wrote Save the Last Dance for Me, This Magic Moment, Lonely Avenue, Viva Las Vegas.

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And I met Doc Palmas through Paul because I went to a gig of Paul's on the Lower East Side.

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Sitting in the audience was this guy in a cowboy hat.

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And Paul brought me over there and said, this is Doc Palmas.

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He wrote all these great songs.

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And struck up a friendship with doc which ended up with him writing for mink deville so you know paul was kind of a pivotal guy in my life in that respect also so

00:04:16.562 --> 00:04:38.387
we're getting on to paul so paul was born in uh in brooklyn in new york in 1947 um and then he played obviously mainly harmonica but he also played guitar and piano and did some singing as well and played various types of harmonica diatonic and chromatic and uh and bass harmonica as well so um What do you guys know about his early life?

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From what I've read, his father encouraged him to play the accordion and he didn't really fancy that and his uncle bought him a harmonica at age 12 and that's how he got started.

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Do you know any more beyond that?

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Well, all I know is that he told me he used to work in a grocery store and there was a black guy that worked in there that played harmonica and that was the first time he heard real blues harmonica being played.

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I guess that guy was an influence on him.

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Well, what I know about that story, too, is that all he knew about the moniker before that, before hearing that guy, was, you know, people playing kind of show tunes on it.

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And then when he heard that guy, the way he bent the notes and all that really caught his ear.

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What sort of a...

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Age was Paul when you guys got to know him?

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When I first met him, he was playing in Muddy's band.

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I was kind of a beginner.

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I mean, I'd been woodshedding and I could play some.

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I'd moved back to Chicago and I went to see Paul at a club called The Quiet Night on the break.

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I told him I played harmonica, and he whisked me into the bathroom to see what I could do.

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He asked me, can you play juke?

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So I started playing juke, and he was surprised by how well I played, and he invited me to come down to his crib, and he was living in Muddy Waters' basement at the time.

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on Lake Park Avenue on the south side.

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So that's how our friendship began.

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We were pretty tight around Chicago.

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What about you, Steve?

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How did you get to know Paul in the first place?

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It was from that live record that they did.

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I knew about him back in, I guess that was, what, early 70s?

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The live at Mr.

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Kelly's was that, the one with Muddy, yeah?

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Yeah.

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Just a country boy Yeah, I know I always would treat you wrong And

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I used to get the village voice out of, I'd be down in Center City by here in Philly.

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I'm from Philadelphia area.

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And I used to see that Paul was playing up there.

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1975, I went up to see him and he was playing a little place called Barber's My Way in Brooklyn.

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And he had his whole band with him.

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You know, Victoria Spivey was there that night.

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I sat in with Paul, and I talked to Paul about different stuff, and that was the first time I met him.

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I thought he was going to play a monocle all night, but he didn't.

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He was on piano.

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You know, Steve, I was at the gig at Mr.

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Kelly's almost every night.

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Oh, man.

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So then Paul took the guitar off of little Frankie, who was his guitar player, and he started playing guitar.

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I was totally blown out.

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I thought all he played was a monocle.

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And it just completely flipped me out.

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Yeah, we're getting how he picked up on the different instruments, because I think he did pick them up a little bit after playing the harmonica, didn't he?

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Actually, no.

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Actually, no, because I'll tell you, because I know this.

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I was about 13.

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I had this friend I went to school with since kindergarten, and I'm still in touch with him.

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His older brother went to Adelphi University, which is out on Long Island, and this was before Paul was with Muddy, Paul was hanging out there.

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I don't know if he was taking any classes there or what, but my friend's brother struck up a friendship with Paul because Paul used to play the guitar and the harp outside on that campus, and my friend used to hang out there because Paul attracted all these girls.

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So there were all these great-looking girls around, and then he started hanging out with Paul, and he said Paul played great guitar back then, played great harp back then, but not only that.

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he told him that one day he was going to play with Muddy Waters.

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So he was onto this track pretty early on.

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Wow yeah so he had that ambition early on so before we get on to the Muddy story so again from what I've been reading about him so we understand his sort of first band was to play with Little Jimmy May he went into a black club and then Jimmy May was a band leader there he sat in with the band and then he started playing with Jimmy May after that after appearing in this club is that how you understand it?

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I know that he said those shows were sort of like a review where They'd have a comedian come on, you know, and open up the show and kind of warm up the crowd.

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And then, you know, he'd be playing with Jimmy May, and he said that he was impressed with the way people dressed, too.

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They all had these great outfits on and stuff, you know.

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So the whole scene kind of intrigued him from that, you know.

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So he started playing at age 15 and he was doing gigs with Little Jimmy May and then I assume his big break was when he became the first white harmonica player to play with Muddy Waters Band and I think the first white player was he, Jerry?

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I'm harking back to what you were saying about the guitarist.

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Yeah, he was the first white player to play in a major black blues band.

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Well, he went to see Muddy at the Apollo.

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He was friends with Snake Johnson.

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And Johnson told him to come down to the Apollo.

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I think Big Walter was supposed to be on that gig and then he canceled it the last minute.

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I think that's what happened.

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And then Snake told Muddy to listen to Paul.

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I think and then Paul sat in and everybody was impressed.

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I think that's how he got in with Muddy.

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Muddy said, can

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you go on the road?

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The words that came out of Muddy's mouth because I heard them myself was, can you travel?

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So then he has this whole story about how the first day in the car, Spann and his wife both took out guns and were, you know, checking them out and the driver, what was that, Bo was the driver?

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Yeah, Bo.

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Took a big swig of vodka or something and then passed it around and Paul said he was watching that and he said, I'm in now.

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You know, that's what he was saying in his head.

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Yeah.

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So you said there, Jerry, that You heard Muddy say that about Can You Travel, so were you actually there when Muddy asked Paul to join the band?

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No, but that's what he said to me when I joined the band.

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Right, right, yeah, okay.

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So the fact that he became Muddy Waters' harmonica player, obviously, you know, the seat in many ways for a harmonica player, and the first white guy especially.

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Playing harmonica, there's Paul Archer.

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Yeah!

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that made him an influential figure right in the harmonica world and he's that someone obviously jerry you know you looked up to then and you know as uh you know being a great harmonica player that inspired a lot of what of a white generation of players was it absolutely

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first of all yeah paul was our he was our lodestone or touchstone for a whole bunch of guys me rick estrin kim field uh everybody because not only was he the first but paul was as a musician he was he was unique.

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There was something about his touch and his feel and time.

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It was really just a mystery.

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It was magic.

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And he had that on every instrument he played.

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He had it on guitar and piano as well as harp.

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His touch and his feel and his time was just a beautiful thing.

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You couldn't really learn it.

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It was just innate in him.

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He was really a brilliant guy in a lot of ways.

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He hit it under a bushel he didn't like people to know really how smart he was or whatever paul was a brilliant brilliant guy and and just a born musician he had a feel for the blues that really was unmatched he was a great great guitar player and a great piano player yeah he was like a one man muddy waters but he could play guitar like muddy and my

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baby don't

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love me no more

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I was knocking on

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the front.

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And a whole lot of other people, too.

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And, you know, harp like Walter and span, piano like span.

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piano like span.

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Yeah, and I think that what you were saying a few minutes ago, Lewis, I think he really learned the trade from being in that band, from what I've read as well.

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You know, like learning the piano from Otis Spohn, as you said there, Jerry, you know, watching Muddy play guitar.

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He really picked up that really authentic Chicago, you know, style directly from them.

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Oh, absolutely.

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I mean, he got not only the licks, but the feel.

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He

00:14:00.924 --> 00:14:07.730
talked a lot about the time, because to me, that was his real key, was the time, because it was just something that...

00:14:08.751 --> 00:14:12.316
And he used to talk about expansion and contraction.

00:14:12.456 --> 00:14:23.847
He said when he used to play along with Muddy's records, he would play a certain way, but then when he got with the band, he realized that you couldn't do it that way.

00:14:23.908 --> 00:14:38.222
And Spann, he said Spann actually helped him a lot with his time, showing him how you have to listen to what the singer's doing, and that tells you a lot about how you do the time around the singer.

00:14:38.703 --> 00:14:46.630
but also this expansion and contraction, which sounds like it's something you could get your hands around, but it's very hard to do.

00:14:46.650 --> 00:14:48.352
Paul seemed to have a natural

00:14:49.073 --> 00:14:50.294
ability to do that.

00:14:50.315 --> 00:14:54.298
He was really a natural, but I'll tell you, you know, the one thing I really...

00:14:54.317 --> 00:14:58.162
I mean, I envy Paul that he got to play with Spann.

00:14:58.201 --> 00:15:04.868
You know, I played with almost everybody you could name, almost every great name in the blues I got to play with.

00:15:05.408 --> 00:15:06.249
Somebody asked me once...

00:15:07.265 --> 00:15:10.428
Is there somebody you didn't get to play with that you would have loved to?

00:15:10.528 --> 00:15:14.192
And immediately, you know, the answer is Oda Spann.

00:15:14.712 --> 00:15:19.378
Because the harmonica players that came into Muddy's band were trained by Spann.

00:15:20.538 --> 00:15:26.605
He trained Cotton and, you know, Mojo and everybody else.

00:15:27.325 --> 00:15:30.788
And I didn't get that lucky.

00:15:30.908 --> 00:15:32.509
I never got to play with Spann.

00:15:33.171 --> 00:15:34.272
Did you meet Spann?

00:15:34.292 --> 00:15:35.974
No, I never met Spann.

00:15:36.833 --> 00:15:39.480
So Paul joined Muddy's band in 1967.

00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:40.982
I think he was 19 then.

00:15:41.283 --> 00:15:42.826
So this was in Chicago, right?

00:15:42.866 --> 00:15:45.913
So he'd moved from New York to Chicago at quite a young age.

00:15:45.952 --> 00:15:47.856
Had he already moved there?

00:15:48.158 --> 00:15:48.958
Do we know that?

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.043
No, I think he went to Chicago.

00:15:51.083 --> 00:15:55.673
He joined Muddy's band in New York, got on the road and then, you know, he...

00:15:56.385 --> 00:15:58.928
He started living in Muddy's basement.

00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:01.292
That's when he went to Chicago.

00:16:01.413 --> 00:16:01.753
Oh, right.

00:16:01.773 --> 00:16:07.320
So he met Muddy in the Apollo Theater in New York and then he went to live with Muddy straight from that, did he?

00:16:07.340 --> 00:16:07.419
Okay.

00:16:07.921 --> 00:16:10.403
And in the basement also was Otis Spann.

00:16:10.784 --> 00:16:11.065
Yeah.

00:16:11.405 --> 00:16:14.129
So they were together a lot.

00:16:14.229 --> 00:16:18.634
And he said Spann used to set up the piano in an alleyway and play.

00:16:18.875 --> 00:16:20.317
People would come around.

00:16:20.557 --> 00:16:23.782
So he was right with them all the time.

00:16:24.258 --> 00:16:27.043
And so he was in Muddy Waters Band from 1968 to 1970.

00:16:27.344 --> 00:16:32.374
And then I think he did another short stint after that as well.

00:16:32.413 --> 00:16:35.259
And then you joined in 74, Jerry, yeah?

00:16:35.820 --> 00:16:36.061
Right.

00:16:37.102 --> 00:16:39.547
So I believe Paul went to Muddy's funeral.

00:16:39.648 --> 00:16:42.312
Is that something maybe you went to, Jerry?

00:16:43.114 --> 00:16:44.657
We went to the funeral together.

00:16:45.217 --> 00:16:52.443
Yeah, and Paul was also on the board of directors who were trying to turn Muddy's Chicago Southside house into a museum.

00:16:53.245 --> 00:16:55.447
Yeah, I believe he was involved in that.

00:16:55.787 --> 00:17:04.295
No, he was on the board because I helped him write some of the stuff that he, you know, he had to write up a number of things that he wanted to see them do.

00:17:05.035 --> 00:17:36.346
He was a little upset because he felt that they didn't fully understand the importance of, you know, some of the things that they should have there to, you you know, remember muddy so he had all these ideas about that and when he got sick you know it was very frustrating for him because you know he was he was very involved at the point that he got sick and then he couldn't do a lot that's why he asked me to write this stuff so yeah he was very devoted to that and wanted to see it happen

00:17:36.446 --> 00:17:39.069
and did that happen so i might excuse my ignorance on this front

00:17:39.809 --> 00:17:52.868
oh yeah yeah they they've got funding and official status from uh you know various landmark commissions and it's being rehabilitated and renovated now.

00:17:53.665 --> 00:17:55.708
Yeah, and it's Muddy's house.

00:17:55.788 --> 00:17:57.209
Do you know that?

00:17:57.328 --> 00:18:07.057
Yeah, it's Muddy's house, the one that, you know, Muddy lived in for a long time before he moved to the suburbs, and it's the one that Paul lived in in the basement with Otis Spann.

00:18:07.538 --> 00:18:12.962
So now it's becoming, I think the title is the Muddy Waters Mojo Museum.

00:18:13.002 --> 00:18:23.632
They have some events there, you know, and I guess they plan to have more, you know, with different blues people playing and trying to get young kids in the community.

00:18:23.632 --> 00:18:24.373
involved in it.

00:18:26.174 --> 00:18:27.576
I just wanted to say one thing, though.

00:18:27.957 --> 00:18:30.219
You had talked about Paul rejoining Muddy.

00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:36.425
There was a gig that he did with Muddy much later on.

00:18:36.445 --> 00:18:38.587
I think it was in maybe the 1990s.

00:18:38.968 --> 00:18:40.509
I can't remember.

00:18:40.529 --> 00:18:47.257
Whoever was playing piano at the time with Muddy, maybe it was Pintop, couldn't do the gig, and so Paul played piano with Muddy.

00:18:48.038 --> 00:18:50.099
And that was at the Bottom Line in New York.

00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:50.580
Yeah,

00:18:50.941 --> 00:18:51.981
I was on that gig.

00:18:52.682 --> 00:18:53.243
Oh, were you?

00:18:53.284 --> 00:18:56.307
Were That's the one where Bob Dylan showed up.

00:18:56.366 --> 00:18:57.828
Yeah, I was there too.

00:18:58.288 --> 00:19:06.337
And Muddy introduced Dylan as John Dylan and nobody made any comments in the audience.

00:19:06.377 --> 00:19:07.439
They didn't know who it was.

00:19:07.459 --> 00:19:12.384
Then somebody leaned over and told Muddy, no, it's Bob Dylan.

00:19:12.443 --> 00:19:16.628
And then Muddy announced Bob Dylan and the whole place went crazy.

00:19:16.709 --> 00:19:18.009
No, he didn't change it.

00:19:19.310 --> 00:19:19.731
He didn't?

00:19:20.413 --> 00:19:24.817
I wrote it up in the book and I remember it Very, very well.

00:19:25.218 --> 00:19:27.942
Ladies and gentlemen, we got a surprise for you tonight.

00:19:27.981 --> 00:19:30.185
We got a big, big star in the house tonight.

00:19:30.246 --> 00:19:31.007
You all know him.

00:19:31.448 --> 00:19:32.148
Dylan's here.

00:19:32.628 --> 00:19:33.490
John Dylan.

00:19:33.651 --> 00:19:34.833
Come out here, John.

00:19:34.853 --> 00:19:36.955
And that's how it went down.

00:19:36.976 --> 00:19:38.217
Oh, boy.

00:19:38.698 --> 00:19:48.712
Afterwards, I went to a party at Victoria Spivey's house with Paul and Dylan and a couple people from his Rolling Thunder tour.

00:19:49.698 --> 00:19:54.563
Paul said that Dylan played Don't Think Twice for everybody at that party.

00:19:56.564 --> 00:20:08.895
That I don't remember, but I do remember Dylan sat down with an acoustic guitar and he said, this is a new song I wrote, and he sang some new song.

00:20:08.935 --> 00:20:10.498
I don't remember what it was.

00:20:10.518 --> 00:20:23.252
I actually do remember that I was surprised at my own reaction because it was actually a pretty moving performance and, you know, Bob Dylan wasn't really my thing at the time.

00:20:23.272 --> 00:20:24.914
I'm a total blues guy.

00:20:26.217 --> 00:20:29.861
I prefer Elmore James, but what can I say?

00:20:30.101 --> 00:20:31.623
Did he play any harmonica, Jerry?

00:20:32.824 --> 00:20:32.983
No.

00:20:33.464 --> 00:20:37.950
He was too afraid in front of you guys.

00:20:37.970 --> 00:20:41.354
At that particular gig, he came up to me afterwards.

00:20:41.874 --> 00:20:48.701
He asked me how I got that sound out of my harmonica, and he invited me to join his Rolling Thunder band.

00:20:48.897 --> 00:21:01.532
review which had just begun a couple weeks earlier oh wow uh you know it was a no-brainer i turned it down i mean i wasn't about to leave muddy waters band for a one-shot tour with bob dylan

00:21:02.314 --> 00:21:11.483
yeah no no the right decision of course so paul um played with uh with muddy and he did three albums with him after the rain live at mr kelly's and unkin funk

00:21:12.726 --> 00:21:12.766
so

00:21:26.306 --> 00:21:31.153
And then he left Muddy's band, I think, in 1971, where he moved to New York.

00:21:31.212 --> 00:21:34.076
So do we know about that decision to leave the band?

00:21:34.116 --> 00:21:36.078
That's quite a big cheer to leave.

00:21:36.098 --> 00:21:37.000
Was that his decision?

00:21:37.862 --> 00:21:39.604
Yeah, he had health problems.

00:21:40.265 --> 00:21:42.107
He had some kind of pneumonia or something.

00:21:42.208 --> 00:21:44.811
Anyway, he went back to New York for health reasons.

00:21:46.433 --> 00:21:54.944
Carrie Bell was in there for a while, and then Mojo Buford, and then I got the gig, and I was there for six years.

00:21:55.713 --> 00:21:57.675
Is this Steve when he moved back to New York?

00:21:57.736 --> 00:22:03.363
Is this when you became, you know, more aware of him or, you know, when he was around New York, did you see him playing then?

00:22:04.143 --> 00:22:04.544
Oh, yeah.

00:22:04.763 --> 00:22:05.464
That's right.

00:22:05.744 --> 00:22:10.651
The first time I saw him was at that place I said Barber's My Way in that 80s, 75.

00:22:10.671 --> 00:22:15.695
And then I started hanging out with his guitar player, little Frankie Bedini.

00:22:16.317 --> 00:22:21.182
And then I started going down and seeing Paul playing different clubs in that area.

00:22:21.603 --> 00:22:23.925
The Fugue was one of them, a couple of different places.

00:22:24.577 --> 00:22:27.424
And then I started, you know, going to Paul's house here and there.

00:22:27.464 --> 00:22:28.426
You know, that's how I got.

00:22:29.028 --> 00:22:31.334
I just popped into his house that one night in 76.

00:22:32.497 --> 00:22:41.377
And I was on Saturday and he started smiling at me and he starts and he goes, well, I got Walter Horton playing at the feud tomorrow night.

00:22:41.826 --> 00:22:43.428
I guess I'm staying over.

00:22:44.068 --> 00:22:48.973
So when he first went to New York, back to New York, he was playing under the name Brooklyn Slim.

00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:51.057
So was he playing as a harmonica player?

00:22:51.076 --> 00:22:53.400
Was he also playing guitar, piano, singing at this stage?

00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.262
Yeah, he played piano, you know, guitar.

00:22:57.545 --> 00:22:59.386
Lou knows I have a live tape of him.

00:23:00.468 --> 00:23:01.970
We

00:23:02.009 --> 00:23:03.832
were just talking about that last night.

00:23:03.912 --> 00:23:04.813
He played everything.

00:23:04.853 --> 00:23:08.738
I even saw him set up vibes one night and he was playing vibes.

00:23:09.153 --> 00:23:10.615
Let me tell you something.

00:23:10.635 --> 00:23:24.618
You could give Paul Osher an instrument, some kind of musical instrument that he had never seen before, and you put him in a room for 30 minutes, and he'll come out playing some swinging stuff for you.

00:23:24.699 --> 00:23:25.961
Yeah, that's the way Paul was.

00:23:26.622 --> 00:23:28.045
He was just a natural.

00:23:28.065 --> 00:23:33.413
And, you know, I remember when I first discovered that he played guitar...

00:23:33.986 --> 00:23:39.695
This guy David Bromberg was kind of a big name in acoustic guitar at the time or whatever.

00:23:40.297 --> 00:23:43.762
Anyway, I remember Paul saying, oh, I can play that shit.

00:23:43.782 --> 00:23:45.326
I can play that shit better than he can.

00:23:45.866 --> 00:23:50.315
And then he gave me a tape of him playing Make Me a Pallet on the Floor.

00:23:50.355 --> 00:23:51.957
And it was just...

00:23:52.642 --> 00:23:53.984
Just fabulous.

00:23:54.365 --> 00:23:56.471
He was great at anything he picked up.

00:23:56.971 --> 00:23:57.673
You

00:23:57.733 --> 00:24:05.613
mentioned that song, Jerry, and I found in Paul's stuff, he has a demo, an acetate.

00:24:05.986 --> 00:24:10.873
that I think he did for Folkways Records of Make Me a Pallet on the Floor.

00:24:10.913 --> 00:24:13.215
And talk about time.

00:24:13.316 --> 00:24:13.717
Oh, yeah.

00:24:13.876 --> 00:24:19.384
You know, you hear a lot of people play that tune, but they don't play it the way he did.

00:24:19.464 --> 00:24:20.807
It's a certain...

00:24:21.207 --> 00:24:22.108
It blows your mind.

00:24:22.148 --> 00:24:27.276
Lou, that's the biggest thing that Paul told me when I went to see him that first night.

00:24:27.336 --> 00:24:29.940
He sat me down and he says, you know, all about timing.

00:24:30.641 --> 00:24:31.501
It's the timing.

00:24:31.662 --> 00:24:34.365
It's like where you put the note...

00:24:34.498 --> 00:24:36.681
When the note's got to be there, when you play it.

00:24:37.201 --> 00:24:41.628
It's not like these guys today, it's as they know, oh, look what he just did, you know.

00:24:41.929 --> 00:24:42.789
I said, what did he do?

00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:43.751
He didn't say anything.

00:24:44.051 --> 00:24:46.455
He's playing a lot of notes, but he ain't saying anything.

00:24:46.496 --> 00:24:48.719
And with Paul, that was it.

00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:54.948
It gives you this feeling like in your chest or something that is just different, you

00:24:54.988 --> 00:24:55.169
know.

00:24:56.109 --> 00:24:59.214
You know, it's something you can't really pinpoint.

00:25:00.056 --> 00:25:00.336
No.

00:25:00.936 --> 00:25:02.138
But you could recognize.

00:25:02.179 --> 00:25:03.461
You knew it when you heard it.

00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:03.740
Right.

00:25:04.738 --> 00:25:09.590
but replicating it was just something else.

00:25:09.671 --> 00:25:10.371
He just had a...

00:25:10.531 --> 00:25:14.914
Well, that's what I wanted to say about when he came back to New York.

00:25:15.035 --> 00:25:24.163
First of all, the places he played, like that Club My Way, there were a lot of black clubs in Brooklyn with a whole rhythm and blues scene going on.

00:25:24.182 --> 00:25:32.431
I mean, if you look at some of the stars of later on, a decent number of them came from these clubs, these little clubs in Brooklyn.

00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:41.078
Like, I don't know if you know Naomi Shelton and the Gospel Queens, but Paul used to play this play in Brooklyn called the Night Cat.

00:25:41.219 --> 00:25:43.141
On

00:25:43.201 --> 00:25:47.224
the bill there, the house singer was this woman, Naomi Davis.

00:25:47.726 --> 00:25:53.191
And later on, on Daptone Records, she had Naomi Shelton in the Gospel of Queens.

00:25:53.511 --> 00:25:55.093
She used to sing like James Brown.

00:25:55.473 --> 00:25:58.096
People would walk by the club and think it was James Brown.

00:25:58.116 --> 00:26:00.358
They'd go in and see this woman singing.

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:24.782
But there was this whole scene there and Paul was the only white guy really that he was so attracted to that music that he was there all the time and did gigs there and he sort of brought this white audience over there because people had seen Paul with Muddy, people loved the way Paul played and people wanted to sit in.

00:26:24.883 --> 00:26:26.785
Paul used to let people sit in.

00:26:27.365 --> 00:26:34.532
So this whole group of young white kids would start going to those clubs just to sit in with Paul and to see what was going on.

00:26:34.893 --> 00:26:39.839
So he kind of in a certain way integrated that whole scene there.

00:26:40.621 --> 00:26:45.268
I think that was a big thing that Paul did in New York at that time when he moved back.

00:26:45.567 --> 00:26:49.213
Yeah, so you think he really helped the blues scene in New York then, do you?

00:26:49.233 --> 00:26:50.935
He started getting it going, yeah?

00:26:50.955 --> 00:26:51.317
Sure.

00:26:51.336 --> 00:26:51.396
I

00:26:51.616 --> 00:26:51.758
mean,

00:26:51.798 --> 00:26:51.978
look,

00:26:52.018 --> 00:26:52.338
Steve

00:26:52.378 --> 00:26:52.838
came all the

00:26:52.878 --> 00:26:54.201
way up from Philadelphia.

00:26:54.882 --> 00:26:58.047
I can't even tell you how many times I did that stuff.

00:26:59.308 --> 00:27:01.051
I mean, it was nothing for me to drive.

00:27:01.291 --> 00:27:05.018
I think it was the week after he played in some place in Queens.

00:27:05.506 --> 00:27:06.287
The Marble Lounge.

00:27:06.386 --> 00:27:07.228
Marble Lounge.

00:27:07.248 --> 00:27:08.490
They played the Marble Lounge.

00:27:08.931 --> 00:27:14.218
I went back the next week with another guy that started the Bucks County Blues Society, Tom Cullen.

00:27:14.318 --> 00:27:15.780
We drove out there to see him.

00:27:16.141 --> 00:27:18.644
It was totally different than the week I saw him before.

00:27:19.184 --> 00:27:20.326
I mean, nothing bad.

00:27:20.366 --> 00:27:21.528
It was just unbelievable.

00:27:22.029 --> 00:27:26.596
His playing was, you know, it wasn't about like this stuff that goes on.

00:27:26.655 --> 00:27:29.519
I don't want to start negative, but look at me, look at me.

00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:30.662
It wasn't about that.

00:27:30.882 --> 00:27:36.807
But he also had all these great black musicians from New York playing with him too.

00:27:36.846 --> 00:27:40.430
You know, Candy MacDonald, you know, Ola May.

00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:42.551
Yeah, Bob Waddy, Larry Dale.

00:27:42.992 --> 00:27:43.173
Right.

00:27:43.853 --> 00:27:43.932
Yeah.

00:27:43.952 --> 00:27:50.798
He sort of was a catalyst bringing all these people together and putting on these, you know, reviews, you know.

00:27:50.818 --> 00:27:50.838
I

00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.143
understand in 1976 he toured Europe with Louisiana Red.

00:27:55.703 --> 00:27:59.247
Is that the first time he went to Europe and did he do much after that?

00:27:59.727 --> 00:28:00.847
He went to Europe with...

00:28:00.847 --> 00:28:01.930
Oh, yeah.

00:28:02.550 --> 00:28:06.179
I did a couple shows with Louisiana Red, too, and it was insane.

00:28:06.239 --> 00:28:07.981
And I mean insane in a good way.

00:28:09.986 --> 00:28:12.731
The guy was a great harmonica player on top of everything else.

00:28:13.913 --> 00:28:15.817
Red was heavy, too.

00:28:16.398 --> 00:28:19.586
Red was another guy that was just, wow, you know.

00:28:20.705 --> 00:28:37.428
well also Paul used to play with Dave Maxwell a lot on the piano and just I don't know Louisiana Red and Maxwell came up here to play you know I'm in Vermont they came up here to play I don't know it was already at least 10-15 years ago

00:28:37.468 --> 00:28:48.383
through the sort of 1980s and sort of early 90s he kept a bit more of a low profile do you know what he was doing during this time was he still out playing was he in New York or

00:28:48.923 --> 00:28:56.535
well first of all After he left Muddy's band, he went to Brooklyn College and got a degree in criminal justice.

00:28:56.974 --> 00:29:01.278
He was working at the Brooklyn District Attorney's Office.

00:29:01.739 --> 00:29:07.003
I think he was ascertaining the charges that various criminals would be charged with.

00:29:07.724 --> 00:29:24.500
But I remember, because I had come to New York, I don't know if I was playing with Muddy or, I don't know, I was in New York and Paul took me out for a celebratory dinner at a fancy steakhouse to celebrate him graduating from Brooklyn College.

00:29:24.780 --> 00:29:30.728
He was married to a New York cop and he was working at the DA's office for a while.

00:29:30.769 --> 00:29:31.809
He had this great job.

00:29:32.269 --> 00:29:34.012
He wasn't that involved in music.

00:29:34.333 --> 00:29:38.578
He also had some degree from, I don't know where, in graphic design.

00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.903
He was a really good painter, you know.

00:29:41.982 --> 00:29:43.884
Yeah, I was just going to say that.

00:29:44.365 --> 00:29:54.953
He did some paintings when he was a kid that Rick Estrin told me about that Rick saw him These two paintings that Paul had done when he was about 9 or 10 years old.

00:29:55.974 --> 00:29:59.258
And Rick was completely blown out with what Paul had painted.

00:29:59.999 --> 00:30:04.063
Nothing could possibly surprise me about Paul Osh.

00:30:04.242 --> 00:30:04.442
No.

00:30:05.044 --> 00:30:11.089
Well, if you look at some of his album covers, he used to design those.

00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:14.232
And he was very particular about how they should look.

00:30:15.134 --> 00:30:18.517
And, you know, that was because he had a really good eye.

00:30:19.329 --> 00:30:39.948
yeah no nice yeah so like you had many many talents as you were saying early on jerry an intelligent guy he got the degree and so yeah he did a sort of day job for sort of maybe through the 80s and 90s and then he released what uh an album in 1993 uh called rough stuff which was with pine top perkins and uh well that was me that was you yeah go on tell us all about it yeah

00:30:40.228 --> 00:30:50.837
well i'll tell you what happened was i always you know followed him because yeah number one i wanted to sit in because i was hoping some something would rub off on me.

00:30:51.337 --> 00:30:52.318
I don't know how much it did.

00:30:53.621 --> 00:30:58.385
So I was always looking for him, and I didn't see him playing for a long time.

00:30:59.026 --> 00:31:03.191
And then I had moved out to Seattle, and I moved back to New York.

00:31:03.691 --> 00:31:08.056
I'm walking by this restaurant that's got a big picture window.

00:31:08.616 --> 00:31:09.396
I'm with my wife.

00:31:10.018 --> 00:31:19.008
She wasn't my wife at the time, but she was new to New York, didn't know anything about the characters that I used to hang out with because I had met her in Seattle.

00:31:19.248 --> 00:31:24.753
And so I see somebody banging on the picture window and it's Paul.

00:31:24.794 --> 00:31:28.417
He was sitting there having like a snack or a cup of coffee or something.

00:31:28.938 --> 00:31:35.806
So he tells me to come in and, you know, I introduce him to my girlfriend and we sit down and we're talking.

00:31:36.286 --> 00:31:41.531
And then this is something that Paul used to do a lot because he was kind of eccentric, you know.

00:31:42.051 --> 00:31:44.734

Paul Oscher retrospective, with Jerry Portnoy, Steve Guyger and Louis Erlanger

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