Feb. 21, 2025

Mikael Backman interview

Mikael Backman joins me on episode 130. Mikael is from Sweden where he started playing blues harmonica, recording six albums with the band Ramblin’ Minds. He then joined the band John Henry. Initially a bluegrass band, they went on to play country, honky tonk and western swing. Mikael is truly a doctor of the harmonica, having conducted various academic studies with the harmonica at center stage, as part of his work at the Piteå School of Music. One of these resulted in a music thesis o...

Mikael Backman joins me on episode 130.

Mikael is from Sweden where he started playing blues harmonica, recording six albums with the band Ramblin’ Minds. He then joined the band John Henry. Initially a bluegrass band, they went on to play country, honky tonk and western swing.

Mikael is truly a doctor of the harmonica, having conducted various academic studies with the harmonica at center stage, as part of his work at the Piteå School of Music. One of these resulted in a music thesis on how practicing the chromatic and diatonic harmonicas can improve the playing of both. Mikael has also recently completed a PhD where he wrote a doctoral thesis on country harmonica, which included an article and recording session with the legendary Charlie McCoy.

Links:

Website: https://harpatwork.com/

John Henry band: www.johnhenry.nu

Mike Caldwell playing Roly Poly: https://soundcloud.com/mike-caldwell-2/roly-poly

Mikael’s recordings on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/07qOtgwTkCHlzYgx6P8Goh?si=d7e648990fd9420b

One Lick - Two Harps: chromatic / diatonic: https://tinyurl.com/yfnh9fcv

PhD thesis My Bag of Licks: https://tinyurl.com/mybagoflicks

Article on Charlie McCoy: https://www.internationalcountrymusic.org/_files/ugd/83ada7_e189b0dca9ad431dbc743cea3ffd5a88.pdf

Charlie McCoy Transcriptions link: https://www.researchcatalogue.net/profile/show-exposition?exposition=1510243

Neil’s harmonica transcriptions: https://www.harptranscripts.co.uk/

Videos:

Same lick on chromatic and diatonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcnyGTtv6A

Mikael talks through what he plays on Oklahoma song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJeskt_Vo1U

Amazing Grace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h04Q9k6eEok

Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS
--------------------------------
Blue Moon Harmonicas: https://bluemoonharmonicas.com

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01:23 - Mikael is from Pitea, in northern Sweden

01:42 - Mainly a Blues and country diatonic harmonica player, although plays some chromatic too

02:02 - Charlie McCoy is one of Mikael’s big inspirations

02:30 - Mikael started playing harmonica in the late 1980s after hearing Sonny Terry playing on the Crossroads movie

03:29 - Plays some bass, but harmonica is main instrument

03:55 - Plays a little bass harmonica

04:09 - Teaches music at the university in Pitea, and has taught since 2001

04:37 - First band was Ramblin’ Minds, formed in 1995, releasing six albums and still going strong

05:21 - Plenty of live music in Pitea, although not specifically a blues scene

06:09 - Ramblin’ Minds has some blues with Swedish lyrics by Ronny Eriksson

07:15 - Formed the band John Henry in 2008, inspired to play Bluegrass by the movie: Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?

07:44 - Went to SPAH for first time around 2008 and heard Buddy Greene playing country harmonica

08:14 - John Henry band won the Swedish Bluegrass championships in 2009 and 2012, and also played Old Timey

08:37 - Bluegrass style on harmonica including contributing to the rhythmic drive and melodic style of playing

09:19 - For bluegrasses mixes the country style of Charlie McCoy with playing chordal approaches

09:57 - John Henry band started playing country music later after addition of electric guitar and pedal steel guitar

10:42 - Added Western Swing to the genres of the John Henry band

11:07 - Western Swing is a form of Jazz played with typical country music style instruments

12:17 - Western Swing harmonica has lots of improvisation and also arranged parts played with other instruments

13:08 - Draws inspiration from other instruments to play Western Swing, as well as the playing of Charlie McCoy

13:56 - Plays chromatic, although uses more diatonic in the John Henry band

14:27 - Done a lot of work as a sideman

14:45 - When playing with female vocalists often in the same range, so have to pick what you play carefully

15:02 - Link to full playlist of Mikael’s recording output available on podcast page

15:17 - Much of session work has been recorded with previous music students he has taught at the university

15:52 - Two former students are Mike Fall and Joel Andersson and Joel has done some harmonica customisation work for Mikael

16:08 - Performed an online concert with Mike Fall at SPAH 2020 and at SPAH 2022 in Tulsa

16:47 - Mikael has conducted various academic studies of the harmonica as part of his work at the Piteå School of Music

17:01 - Completed a Masters in Music Education at the Piteå School of Music and started teaching there as part of that

17:18 - Was able to have harmonica as main instrument on the course as the university wanted to diversify the type of instruments taught from the most common ones

18:12 - Had to work at music theory for the teaching position

18:19 - Mikael was able to travel to the US for harmonica tuition as part of the university course, learning with Howard Levy and Robert Bonfiglio and going to some SPAH conventions

18:56 - First studied with Howard Levy, spending three days with him

19:26 - Learnt chromatic with Robert Bonfiglio, including tongue switching

19:42 - Learning music theory has been very beneficial to his harmonica playing, with playing by ear having some limitations

20:31 - Completed a Masters Degree in Musical Performance in 2017, including a thesis on ‘One Lick - Two Harps: How can practicing the chromatic harmonica make me a better diatonic player and vice versa?’

22:04 - The thesis is available online including music clips of the same lick on diatonic and chromatic

23:04 - Used a C diatonic and a C chromatic and played licks only in the key of G

23:53 - Also did some recordings with the John Henry band as part of the Masters Degree in Musical Performance

24:50 - Before completing this thesis had mainly played third position blues style chromatic

25:18 - Went on to complete a PhD on understanding of how performers can develop and/or transform their artistic voice through the process of transcribing and imitating an iconic musician (Charlie McCoy)

26:40 - Completed the PhD in 2024

26:58 - A large part of the PhD was to study the licks of Charlie McCoy and has written a paper on Charlie McCoy, published in the International country Music Journal 2022

27:33 - As part of the PhD transcribed the first thirteen of Charlie McCoy’s albums and learned to play the transcriptions

28:23 - Transcriptions were mostly hand written, but has put some of them into musical notation and the transcriptions are available online

29:15 - Neil has done transcriptions, which are available at the Harp Transcripts website

29:42 - Real value of doing transcriptions is putting the work into transcribing the songs yourself

30:11 - As part of the PhD Mikael interviewed Charlie McCoy, Buddy Greene and Mike Caldwell and discovered they all move their jaw when playing an adjacent hole, which brings speed

31:31 - Charlie McCoy recorded with Mikael on the John Henry album Lucky Luck

32:01 - The idea for the Lucky Luck album grew out of the PhD project and it was recorded in the same studio Charlie McCoy recorded many of his albums (Cinderella Sound Studios)

33:00 - Charlie McCoy played mainly bass, but also harmonica on two tracks some vibes on one song

34:28 - Charlie McCoy has been interviewed on the podcast and is a lovely guy and a great pro

34:47 - Charlie McCoy invented the Nashville numbering system and Mikael shared notations of the Lucky Luck album songs with Charlie ahead of the recordings

35:14 - The Nashville numbering system writes numbers for chords

36:27 - Jazz chord numbering uses roman numerals, which is a different system

36:48 - Nashville Yodelling Blues song from Lucky Luck album, which imitates Charlie McCoy ‘yodelling’ on the harmonica

38:02 - Charlie McCoy uses a jaw flick to play yodels on harmonica, so Mikael does the same

38:51 - Another song from Lucky Luck album is Oklahoma, which is about Mikael’s visit to Tulsa, and what it used to be

39:41 - Two guest musicians who perform on the song are from the band Time Jumpers

39:59 - Has created some YouTube videos talking through some of the harmonica parts on songs from the Lucky Luck album

40:23 - Uses country tuning (originally invented by Charlie McCoy) on some songs

40:45 - Mikael has come up with the Western Swing harmonica tuning

41:11 - Advantage of country tuning is the major 7th and being able to bend it down to the flat 7th

41:50 - One advantage of Western Swing tuning

42:49 - Western Swing tuning has 5 draw raised a semitone (as per country tuning) and also the 7 blow raised a semitone, which is a blow bend as per 8-10 blow holes

44:01 - Not aware of anyone else using this tuning yet

44:47 - Ten minute question

45:34 - Uses overblows sparingly

46:14 - Played on the ‘MS-Blows’ album, along with some US players, to raise money for Jimmy Gordon, who developed Multiple Sclerosis

47:32 - Did a presentation in 2022 in Brussels on the diatonic playing style of Toots Thielemans

47:57 - Toots played diatonic over a ten year period, from 1967-1977

48:18 - Toots was a pioneer of overblows, discovering them himself during this time

48:49 - Rob Paparazzi verified that Toots did play some overblows when Mikael talked with Rob

49:30 - Toots may well have been the first person to ever record a 4 hole overblow on Midnight Blues, with the Bert Paige orchestra

49:41 - Toots discovered overblows at the same time Howard Levy and Will Scarlett started playing them, and they didn’t know the others were playing them

50:21 - Toots probably stopped playing diatonic as he was recording less sessions, where he may have used diatonic at the request of the studio

50:59 - Interview in a documentary where Toots references overblows without calling them that

51:23 - There is a book coming out in a year or so about Toot’s harmonica life, where Mikael has written a chapter on Toots playing overblows

51:39 - Plays Hohner Marine Band and Crossover diatonics, Hohner Ace 48, Meisterklasse and Super 64X for chromatics

52:16 - Has a chromatic made by Joel Andersson

52:24 - Uses fifth position when playing minor country songs

53:00 - Uses some third position on the Western Swing tuning, which provides a major scale

53:30 - Embouchre: mainly tongue blocks, which is unusual for country style as that is typically pucker, but Mikael uses a lot of corner switching, which suits tongue blocking

54:00 - Mics: uses Audio Fireball for clean playing

54:20 - Sonny Junior amp when playing blues, the first model with four eight inch speakers

54:32 - Has some vintage mics but has been using the Hohner Harp Blaster HB52 dynamic mic recently, liking the small size for cupping

55:42 - Effects: sometimes a little reverb either via a pedal or added by the sound technician

56:08 - For country and western swing goes for a clean sound through the PA, and likes to record using a ribbon mic

56:43 - Future plans include more studies of the harmonica and the Toots book which is to be released

57:11 - Also contributed to a book about the song Amazing Grace, which has reached it’s 250th anniversary, about why it is so popular with harmonica players

57:21 - Mikael performed Amazing Grace at a conference in the place where the song was composed and first played in Olney, England

58:22 - Mikael is truly a doctor of the harmonica

WEBVTT

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Michael Backman joins me on episode 130.

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Michael is from Sweden where he started playing blues harmonica, recording six albums with the band Rambling Minds.

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He then joined the band John Henry, initially a bluegrass band, they went on to play country, honky tonk and western swing.

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Michael is truly a doctor of the harmonica, having conducted various academic studies with the harmonica at Centre Stage.

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as part of his work at the PTO School of Music.

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One of these resulted in a music thesis on how practising the chromatic and diatonic harmonicas can improve the playing of both.

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Michael has also recently completed a PhD where he wrote a doctoral thesis on country harmonica, which included an article and recording session with the legendary Charlie McCoy.

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This podcast is sponsored by Seidel Harmonicas.

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Visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas.

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Hello, Michael Backman, and welcome to the podcast.

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Hi, Neil.

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Thanks for having me.

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No pleasure, Michael.

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So you're speaking to us from PTO in Sweden.

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That's right.

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So whereabouts in Sweden is PTO?

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It's

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pretty far up north.

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It's about a two-hour drive south of the Arctic

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Circle.

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Right.

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So you get to see the Northern Lights all the time, do you, up there?

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Yeah.

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You're a player who does, well, I think mainly sort of blues and country, and I think you'd consider yourself to be a sort of mainly a country sort of diatonic harmonica specialist now.

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Is that Right.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Blues and country is where I feel most comfortable, and I do play chromatic as well, but diatonic is my main axe.

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So blues and country, very much like one of your main inspirations, who I understand would be Charlie McCoy, yeah?

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Right, definitely.

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Yeah, so we'll get on to Charlie later, and you've done a lot of work on Charlie, let's say, so yeah, you're probably a foremost expert on Charlie's playing, so that's great to hear.

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Yeah.

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So you started playing in the sort of late 1980s.

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So tell me about how you got started playing harmonica.

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Yeah, we were...

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three friends who started listening to blues just before we were starting high school and they both got a guitar the thought was that we would start a band so they wanted me to pick up drums or bass but that wasn't really in my budget and around the same time we saw that Walter Hill movie Crossroads with the magnificent soundtrack where there's a lot of Sonny Terry on and just the sound of Sonny Terry just mesmerized me and I really wall.

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That's where I want to go.

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I want to play the harmonica.

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So it was a country blues as well, that first influence.

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So you had kind of that country blues influence.

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Yeah, really.

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That just acoustic sound that just really, like I said, really mesmerized me.

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And then, of course, I got into all the other blues greats and the amplified stuff.

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And

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did you try any other instruments around this stage, or do you play anything else now?

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I

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play a little bit of other instruments.

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As I teach music, I have like a working knowledge of the major instruments and I play quite a lot of bass at home when we rehearse but I wouldn't consider myself a bass player.

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Pretty much harmonica is what I would consider myself to know how to play.

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Any bass harmonica?

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A little bit.

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I own one, play it on a couple of tunes but I'm not really there.

00:04:03.104 --> 00:04:04.287
Yeah, same

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here.

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I own one too but yeah.

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So as you say there, so you You've done lots in education, which we'll get into, and so has that been your career then?

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You've been working professionally as a sort of music teacher and a musician, have you, since the start?

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Yeah, I would definitely say that, first and foremost, I would consider myself a musician, but if you ask my accountant, she would say, no, you're a teacher, first and foremost.

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So

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you were playing with your friends then, and then how did you start playing then?

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I think your first proper band was Rambling Minds, yeah?

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I think you got your first album in 1995.

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Right, I was really fortunate because I grew up here in Pito and it's a small town, so there wasn't anyone to ask how to play harmonica.

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I had to figure it out by myself.

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But there was a number of musicians that were roughly 10 years older than me who were really good and had been playing for quite a long time, but nobody was playing harmonica.

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So I sort of fit the bill to play with them, even though they were much, much better than me.

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The only sort of blues scene in the far

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north of Sweden?

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I wouldn't say specifically a blues scene, but it was a really good live music scene back then.

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So there were plenty of places to play for any band who played anything like rock or blues or similar styles of music.

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Great.

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And so you've been with them quite a long time.

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You sort of had six albums.

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We're still going strong.

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Yeah, a song I picked out as a good one is Diatonic Madness.

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Diatonic Madness

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because that one you composed.

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Yeah, I co-composed it with one of the guitar players in the band.

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Yeah.

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And also, great, you've got some blues with Swedish lyrics.

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I always love that when you hear the sort of songs in the native tongue always sound great, I think.

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Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, we've done a lot of work with Ronny Eriksson.

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He's a singer and a comedian.

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So we've done a lot of touring with him.

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And so, I probably pronounced this wrong.

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Correct me if I'm wrong.

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So Minthruhar, that's the My Babe riff.

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Is that The lyrics to My Baby Singing or something else?

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The lyrics are

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about his singing, that his wife has no cellulite, but she has these little dimples in her thighs.

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So it's kind of a nice euphorism for that.

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Right.

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A bit of comedy in there.

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Yeah, great.

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Music Min fru har inga celluliter, min fru

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You started out playing blues, and you were into blues for quite a while with this band, yeah?

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Mm-hmm.

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That's where you're grounding.

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And then you got into playing country harmonica, formed your band John Henry in 2008.

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Right.

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Once again, it was a movie that sort of led me into it.

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My wife was the lead vocalist of John Henry, Ika.

00:07:32.786 --> 00:07:36.249
We saw the Coen brothers, Oh Brother Where Art Thou?

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Oh, great movie, great movie.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And great soundtrack, T-ball.

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Burnett put it together so we saw that and really fell in love with the music and at around the same time I went to a spa in Dallas, Texas and heard Buddy Green playing country harmonic.

00:08:05.057 --> 00:08:12.908
and he did this workshop as well and a concert with great musicians from Nashville, and I was like, wow, that is really cool.

00:08:13.067 --> 00:08:13.829
I want

00:08:13.848 --> 00:08:14.329
to play that.

00:08:14.689 --> 00:08:20.978
Well, you won the Swedish Bluegrass Championships in 2009-2012, so it was Bluegrass initially the band, was it?

00:08:21.137 --> 00:08:29.608
Yeah, Bluegrass and old-time, so strictly acoustic, just acoustic guitar and stand-up bass, Spanio, mandolin, and harmonica.

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¶¶

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How did you then approach transitioning from blues harmonica to country and bluegrass?

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It took a while, because first of all, playing bluegrass and old-timey, you really have to play more or less all the time to sort of contribute to the rhythm of the music.

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It's almost like you want to hear that snare drum going...

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but it's not there, so it's the responsibility of all the musicians to sort of play to evoke that rhythmic drive.

00:09:07.589 --> 00:09:15.395
So that was kind of different from playing blues, definitely, and also getting into this transitioning into a more melodic style of playing.

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That was, I thought, a very interesting journey to make.

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I guess what I play when I do that is a sort of a mix between the country style of Charlie McCoy and really just playing it with more chords and more rhythmic drive to it and I guess it blends into old time as well so we sort of did a mix of all that I would say.

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And so the country harmonica then, so was that, did the John Henry band move to that later, or were you playing country from the beginning?

00:10:04.636 --> 00:10:04.856
No, we

00:10:05.197 --> 00:10:06.398
moved into that later.

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The guy who played banjo with us quit, and we replaced him with a guy that played a little bit of banjo, but he wasn't that good, but he was a really good electric guitar player.

00:10:17.488 --> 00:10:19.909
So we were like, well, maybe you should play that instead.

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And since we got that sound in, it was more like, we kind of need to get some other style of music.

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So we started getting in more and to honky tonk and around the same time we added a pedal steel player as well sort of grew from there after a while we were like well maybe we should have a drummer to keep that beat steady and and then we totally steered away from the bluegrass and the acoustic style

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yeah and you're playing western swing as well is that that's come later

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yeah it kind of grew from that when we started listening a lot to honky tonk and and some of that really has a lot in common with the western swing because you started hearing honky Tonk bands play Bob Wills songs and then check out, oh, who's Bob Wills?

00:11:01.754 --> 00:11:03.136
And then, wow, this is great.

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There's a lot of good stuff here and it just grew from there.

00:11:07.043 --> 00:11:09.466
So maybe explain to people what Western Swing is.

00:11:09.927 --> 00:11:17.076
Western Swing is a style of music that originated in southern United States in the 30s.

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where people were playing what they would consider to be jazz, but they were playing it with more typical country instruments.

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So instead of a horn section, you would have a fiddle section.

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Instead of a saxophone soloing, it would be a steel guitar and an electric guitar.

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And they were also the first to add drums to any style of country music.

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Well, actually, the first recording of electric guitar is also Western swing bands.

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So it's kind of like jazz country with an improvisation like jazz.

00:11:52.726 --> 00:12:05.085
Yeah, very based in the swing music of that era, but also in the New Orleans style, since they often play this two-beat feel, not the four-four walking of swing music.

00:12:05.384 --> 00:12:17.022
So it's a really interesting blend of different stuff, also influences from Mexican mariachi music and all kinds of things that was going on there in Texas and Oklahoma.

00:12:17.505 --> 00:12:20.559
So, okay, so Western Swing Harmonica then.

00:12:20.640 --> 00:12:23.594
So this is improvised based, is it?

00:12:23.995 --> 00:12:24.236
Yeah,

00:12:24.258 --> 00:12:25.784
it's lots of improvisation.

00:12:43.265 --> 00:12:50.553
but also a lot of arranged parts playing hits together with the pedal steel and with the electric guitar.

00:12:59.264 --> 00:13:06.392
That's something I really enjoy a lot, to have this little section going on, and I really love the blend of the pedal steel and the harmonica.

00:13:06.412 --> 00:13:07.714
That's a great sound.

00:13:08.385 --> 00:13:17.714
So for your country, your honky tonk, your western swing, what sort of other players, will you listen to other harmonica players or other instruments to draw inspiration?

00:13:18.894 --> 00:13:36.350
Mostly other instruments I would say, but of course Charlie McCoy is a big hero of mine and he's done quite a bit of western swing recordings and just his general style of playing country is really easily adaptable to the western swing style.

00:13:37.110 --> 00:13:43.219
And also Mike Caldwell It's a big influence on me and he's done quite a lot of western swing.

00:13:56.418 --> 00:14:03.006
You mentioned at the top that you do play some chromatic, so do you put that into the John Henry band much?

00:14:03.888 --> 00:14:04.008
Not

00:14:04.067 --> 00:14:07.413
as much as the diatonic, but I do chromatic on a couple of songs.

00:14:09.601 --> 00:14:27.019
So that's your two main bands, and we'll get into more into John Henry shortly and what you've done with that, some great work with that.

00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:36.509
But then you've also worked as a sort of sideman, you've done various recordings with other players, some sort of Swedish female vocalists, for example, with Karen Storch.

00:14:43.330 --> 00:14:46.360
yeah again

00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:51.998
always nice that combination with the harmonica and the female vocalist goes well together doesn't it

00:14:52.097 --> 00:15:01.947
Yeah, and it's always a challenge because you're usually right in the same range, so you really have to think about staying out of the way and complementing the vocals.

00:15:02.267 --> 00:15:08.873
You've got a great playlist with all your, well, at least most of your recorded tracks on Spotify, which you showed me.

00:15:08.913 --> 00:15:16.960
I'll put that on the podcast page so people can find your full playlist and, again, the two main bands, Rambling Minds and John Henry, and these other session tracks you've done.

00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:21.143
The session work you've got over there, how's that come your way?

00:15:21.163 --> 00:15:22.004
A lot

00:15:22.024 --> 00:15:27.250
of It comes from people I'm either working with or former students.

00:15:27.389 --> 00:15:31.193
I teach at the School of Music in Piteå, the university.

00:15:31.214 --> 00:15:35.918
So there's loads of talented students that have passed by over the years.

00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.424
And they, of course, know me as the only teacher they've had that played the harmonica.

00:15:41.924 --> 00:15:49.192
So if they do anything, any recording, and they think, well, maybe we should have a harmonica here, they usually contact me.

00:15:49.693 --> 00:15:49.974
So you're

00:15:49.994 --> 00:15:51.475
playing with lots of your former students?

00:15:51.936 --> 00:15:52.015
Yeah.

00:15:52.015 --> 00:15:59.043
And I think I'm right in saying two of your former students are Joel Anderson and Mike Fall.

00:15:59.464 --> 00:16:00.105
Right, yeah.

00:16:00.384 --> 00:16:01.826
Are you playing Joel's harmonicas?

00:16:01.846 --> 00:16:02.567
That's the question.

00:16:02.586 --> 00:16:07.351
I think he has tinkered on most of my harmonicas, yeah.

00:16:08.953 --> 00:16:16.402
And Mike Fall, who's another of your students, you performed with him at SPA, didn't you, on the online session, I think it was in 2020.

00:16:16.822 --> 00:16:18.303
Due to COVID, it was online, yeah?

00:16:18.384 --> 00:16:21.167
You did a sort of concert online at SPA, yeah?

00:16:21.366 --> 00:16:21.967
Yeah.

00:16:21.967 --> 00:16:23.998
We'll be right back.

00:16:31.714 --> 00:16:36.340
We got to do it on site as well in Tulsa.

00:16:36.801 --> 00:16:37.942
I think it was two years ago.

00:16:37.961 --> 00:16:43.490
So that was great to be able to play with a former student who has done so well.

00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:46.474
And he did all the arrangements for the songs.

00:16:46.573 --> 00:16:46.953
He's really

00:16:46.994 --> 00:16:47.475
good at that.

00:16:48.015 --> 00:16:49.418
So let's get into your studies then.

00:16:49.437 --> 00:16:50.698
It's obviously been a major part.

00:16:50.719 --> 00:16:53.462
And as you say, you're obviously teaching a lot as well.

00:16:53.562 --> 00:16:59.250
So you are teaching now, as you say, at PTO University, is it?

00:16:59.510 --> 00:16:59.730
Yeah.

00:17:00.351 --> 00:17:00.952
So when did you

00:17:00.972 --> 00:17:01.433
start there?

00:17:01.826 --> 00:17:11.594
I did my Masters of Music Education there starting in 2001 and I think in my second year I started teaching as well as studying.

00:17:11.815 --> 00:17:17.720
First just some harmonica classes and then I took over the music history class as well before I graduated.

00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.384
Well, a question always about people who study music at universities.

00:17:22.443 --> 00:17:27.448
Were you able to have harmonica as your main instrument or did you have to have it as a secondary instrument?

00:17:27.888 --> 00:17:29.789
I had it as a main instrument actually.

00:17:29.869 --> 00:17:42.403
I was really fortunate because The very reason I decided to apply was that they had done this analysis of music teachers in Sweden and sort of realized that, okay, everyone is pretty much the same background.

00:17:42.442 --> 00:17:55.057
They play a set variety of instruments, but there's really no teachers that are really good at playing other instruments than, you know, guitar, piano, the common instruments.

00:17:55.497 --> 00:18:01.503
So they opened up this thing where you could apply even if your background was a little different.

00:18:01.743 --> 00:18:12.075
And at that time, I'd been playing harmonica for quite some time, and I didn't have that much theoretical background, but I figured, well, I'll apply and we'll see what happens.

00:18:12.454 --> 00:18:15.318
They liked my playing, so they said, well, you can start.

00:18:15.338 --> 00:18:19.542
You're going to have to work hard at the theory part, but you'll figure it out.

00:18:19.903 --> 00:18:26.309
And they really asked me, we're not sure how to do about your main instrument.

00:18:26.369 --> 00:18:27.471
Who's going to be your teacher?

00:18:27.511 --> 00:18:33.258
I was kind of cocky and said, well, you're going to have to send me to the States, because that's where the best teachers are.

00:18:33.597 --> 00:18:36.740
And to my big surprise, they said, okay, then we'll do that.

00:18:37.001 --> 00:18:37.342
Excellent.

00:18:37.682 --> 00:18:42.748
So I was able to go over there and study with Robert Bonfiglio and Howard Levy.

00:18:43.208 --> 00:18:49.835
And also I got to go to a number of spa conventions as part of my education.

00:18:50.096 --> 00:18:51.176
So I was really fortunate.

00:18:51.837 --> 00:18:52.478
Yeah, amazing.

00:18:52.518 --> 00:18:52.759
Yeah.

00:18:52.818 --> 00:18:55.922
So how long did you spend with sort of Robert Bonfiglio and

00:18:55.961 --> 00:18:56.643
Howard and others?

00:18:57.163 --> 00:18:59.685
That was really like intense studying.

00:18:59.726 --> 00:19:03.148
Howard Levy was actually the first guy I took a harmonica lesson from.

00:19:03.169 --> 00:19:05.070
So that was quite overwhelming.

00:19:05.431 --> 00:19:11.316
But I was with him for three days and hanging around his house and just soaking it in.

00:19:11.355 --> 00:19:12.958
That must have been intense with Howard.

00:19:12.998 --> 00:19:13.458
How was that?

00:19:14.058 --> 00:19:16.381
It was absolutely mind-blowing.

00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:24.728
I had just started getting into overblows and, you know, like I said, I was really self-taught and he really straightened me out on a lot of things.

00:19:25.008 --> 00:19:26.229
So that was amazing.

00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:30.893
And then Robert, of course, were you learning chromatic with Robert Bonfilio?

00:19:31.153 --> 00:19:31.433
Yeah.

00:19:31.682 --> 00:19:37.248
He's the guy who showed me corner switching, which I wasn't even aware you could do that.

00:19:37.768 --> 00:19:40.931
And that has been quite useful later on in my country

00:19:40.951 --> 00:19:41.231
playing.

00:19:41.251 --> 00:19:50.039
And so you mentioned there about theory, because I think that would always be maybe something that harmonica players are lacking, the sort of theory basis.

00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.182
Not always, but in many cases, they don't learn in the traditional way.

00:19:53.243 --> 00:19:54.525
So that is something that's lacking.

00:19:54.585 --> 00:19:57.106
So how did you apply that to the harmonica?

00:19:57.146 --> 00:19:59.309
Any particular approaches?

00:19:59.874 --> 00:20:00.094
Well,

00:20:00.174 --> 00:20:15.326
it's been really useful just to understand, you know, chords and scales and the relationship between them to really think like beyond just positions and keys, but to really see how these things work.

00:20:15.490 --> 00:20:19.313
connect to each other, especially when learning chromatic, of course.

00:20:19.693 --> 00:20:24.877
You can play by ear, but you have to have really good ears when the harmony gets complex.

00:20:25.077 --> 00:20:27.601
So knowing theory is really helpful, I think.

00:20:28.260 --> 00:20:31.743
So you've gone on to do some other amazing things in your studies.

00:20:31.824 --> 00:20:34.646
First of all, a master's degree in music performance 2017.

00:20:35.626 --> 00:20:38.309
Was this in the same music school?

00:20:38.690 --> 00:21:00.632
Yes, I was working there at the time and I had a master's in music education already, but the research subject of the university by then was not education it was music performance and I wanted to get deeper into the theories around that so I did my masters first to be able to pursue a PhD later on.

00:21:01.113 --> 00:21:06.498
So in your musical performance masters that was again based on the harmonica was it?

00:21:06.719 --> 00:21:35.182
Yeah that was I was examining ways to sort of be my own teacher it was really centered around western swing and just John Henry so I took like typical western swing licks typically played on guitar or fiddle and then I would transcribe them and first play them on a diatonic and then see okay if I play this on a chromatic in the same key what works and what would I have to adjust to make it sound good on the chromatic.

00:21:35.501 --> 00:21:45.631
And as I made a change on the chromatic, I then took that back to the diatonic and tried to play the exact same thing and see, well, that worked, but maybe I have to tweak it this way.

00:21:45.770 --> 00:22:04.128
So starting with one lick and just moving back and forth between the diatonic and the chromatic really ended up being quite a useful method to come up with original ideas and just to see how the instruments, what they have in common how they can sort of inspire each other.

00:22:04.169 --> 00:22:06.311
Sure, yeah, so you sent me the link.

00:22:06.352 --> 00:22:16.405
So your thesis is available online, and on there there's lots of audio clips where you're playing various licks, as you say, on the diatonic and then on the chromatic, so you can hear the difference.

00:22:18.307 --> 00:22:18.347
So

00:22:26.558 --> 00:22:28.182
obviously you're trying to play the same...

00:22:28.546 --> 00:22:59.413
notes you can hear obviously the bends in the diatonic that aren't in the chromatic it's a little bit cleaner but as you say a great way to learn both instruments I mean because I also play chromatic and diatonic and I really I often sort of use the the kind of more music theory based approach of the chromatic to understand what I'm doing on the diatonic and you can do things to know like exactly what bend you're playing and that sort of thing so yeah it's really useful but you know we had this discussion here quite a lot about how the two instruments complement each other.

00:22:59.452 --> 00:23:03.656
So given you've done this thesis, what was your conclusion about that?

00:23:04.057 --> 00:23:06.180
Well, I did it in a very specific way.

00:23:06.259 --> 00:23:12.807
I used C harmonica and played in second position, so I'm playing in G, and then I played a C chromatic in G.

00:23:13.248 --> 00:23:24.900
They have quite a lot in common as far as how the note layout is, given that holes 1 through 4 on a chromatic is the same as 4 through 7 on a diatonic.

00:23:25.820 --> 00:23:31.547
I would say it's a very good way, if you're a diatonic player and want to learn how to play chromatic, that's a good approach.

00:23:31.907 --> 00:23:40.115
And vice versa, if you already know the chromatic and you want to get into the diatonic, play something in G and then repeat it on your C harmonica.

00:23:40.616 --> 00:23:44.340
So as you say, the note layout is very similar in that key.

00:23:44.800 --> 00:23:46.442
So you didn't do any other keys?

00:23:47.124 --> 00:23:49.606
No, not at that specific thesis.

00:23:49.727 --> 00:23:52.390
I really focus it on just the key of G.

00:23:52.990 --> 00:24:13.250
Yeah, and then I did some recordings as the artistic output where We recorded three songs with John Henry, and I played two of them first on diatonic, and then I transcribed the improvised solos, learned to play them on the chromatic, and did some adjustments.

00:24:13.411 --> 00:24:19.356
And one song I did the other way around, improvised solo on the chromatic, and then transcribing that for the diatonic.

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000
.

00:24:50.753 --> 00:24:55.498
At this stage, had you played a lot of chromatic or was it still quite new to you?

00:24:55.538 --> 00:25:00.321
Was it something you really used to help push you on in chromatic or were you already quite accomplished on chromatic?

00:25:00.803 --> 00:25:07.828
Prior to that, I had mostly played like the George Smith style in D on a C chromatic playing blues.

00:25:08.068 --> 00:25:09.490
Yeah, third position blues stuff,

00:25:09.790 --> 00:25:09.871
yeah.

00:25:09.891 --> 00:25:10.030
Right.

00:25:10.371 --> 00:25:17.998
Opened up my eyes and ears to the chromatic and working on more keys and getting that into my playing as well.

00:25:18.798 --> 00:25:19.199
Great stuff.

00:25:19.219 --> 00:25:23.163
And then you went on to do a PhD in music performance

00:25:23.542 --> 00:25:53.976
yeah I was I got really interested well first and foremost in how do you really when you develop your own style of playing or your own voice as a musician that in combination with really just working with a lot of licks which I really always liked having a vocabulary of licks and and realizing how important that has been to many players both in blues and country and I just wanted to delve deeper into those two things.

00:25:54.115 --> 00:25:59.981
How could I do a project where I would really deliberately transform my own voice?

00:26:00.021 --> 00:26:03.144
So that was kind of the goal with the PhD.

00:26:03.766 --> 00:26:08.111
So reading your abstract, which again is available online, I'll put the link onto the podcast space.

00:26:08.151 --> 00:26:15.659
So understanding how performers can develop and or transform their artistic voice through the process of transcribing and imitating an iconic musician.

00:26:15.739 --> 00:26:18.561
So I think this iconic musician was Charlie McCoy.

00:26:18.942 --> 00:26:19.363
Yes.

00:26:20.042 --> 00:26:20.624
So it's interesting.

00:26:20.624 --> 00:26:42.227
interesting as we talked about you know music theory and harmonica and how you know playing a harmonica at the university as you mean because a lot of harmonica players will do exactly that right we'll try and copy and imitate licks we'll often write them down transcribe them and so you've taken that to the to the nth degree here by by doing a whole phd on it yeah so um have you completed the phd now

00:26:42.627 --> 00:26:43.969
yes i i defended it

00:26:44.630 --> 00:27:33.981
in october just last year yeah so so yeah great honor i mean i'm sure lots of us are um very envious that you've done a PhD in harmonica that must be quite a feather in your cap as we'd say yeah so a lot of what you did as we mentioned there is you studied licks of Charlie McCoy right so and as part of this you've written a paper on Charlie McCoy which appears in the International Country Music Journal in 2022 which again I'll put a link on I've read through that article which is great really you know you provide a good summary of Charlie's career the fact that he plays different genres and the way that he started out playing blues as we touched on with you and then he went over to country cleaned up his playing so he was more country style and you know he's quite melodic and tell us about your studies about Charlie McCoy and what you've learned from him yeah

00:27:34.182 --> 00:27:58.749
I decided that I wanted to do this study that I would first transcribe I chose Charlie's the first part of his career I guess you could say from from when he he came to Nashville in 61 and records his first album 67 so So I transcribed his first 13 albums from 67 all the way up to 76, I believe it is.

00:27:59.128 --> 00:28:02.992
So that was every bit of harmonica you played on these first 13 albums, was it?

00:28:03.374 --> 00:28:07.678
Yeah, with the exception of when he plays harmony with himself.

00:28:08.338 --> 00:28:09.681
I left that alone.

00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:12.403
But other than that, I transcribed everything, wrote it down.

00:28:12.442 --> 00:28:17.709
And as a part of my artistic method, I also learned how to play it along with the recordings.

00:28:18.109 --> 00:28:19.790
So I spent a lot of time with...

00:28:20.432 --> 00:28:21.813
all the McCoy's recordings

00:28:21.973 --> 00:28:27.219
you certainly did so how did you transcribe did you write it onto paper or did you use computer program or

00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:59.453
mostly handwritten there's a page in or a website in research catalog which accompanies the thesis and I've uploaded all the transcriptions there the handmade ones my handwriting isn't the greatest in the world so it might be tricky sometimes to see what it is but I've also written it out in in traditional music notation for at least some of them when I really want to share my transcriptions with others.

00:28:59.594 --> 00:29:02.317
But when I transcribe myself, I always do it by hand.

00:29:02.817 --> 00:29:05.759
So all the transcriptions you do at Charlie McCoy are available?

00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:06.681
Yes.

00:29:07.382 --> 00:29:08.323
Oh, that's great.

00:29:08.383 --> 00:29:13.449
So if people want to learn a particular Charlie McCoy song, then they'll be able to go and find that.

00:29:13.848 --> 00:29:15.250
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:15.411 --> 00:29:17.292
So I've done many transcriptions.

00:29:17.353 --> 00:29:54.688
I've used the software Transcribe, which I'm sure you've heard of so i actually have a website called harp transcripts where i've shared my transcriptions i've done quite a lot but the ones i've done in trying in in this for this website i've put on there there isn't thousands there isn't as many as obviously you've done but there's a reasonable amount up there so i had this idea of like the whole harmonica community sharing the transcriptions and there's a whole body of transcription work that people could turn to but um i guess you know the value in it is actually doing the transcriptions yourself because actually going and looking at someone else's transcriptions you still got a lot of work to do right to get to get that I think actually the process of transcribing yourself is half that battle, isn't it?

00:29:55.074 --> 00:29:56.194
Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:56.255 --> 00:29:59.678
I mean, you learn so much just trying to figure this stuff out.

00:30:00.358 --> 00:30:11.268
And I think, you know, going along and looking at your transcriptions of Charlie McCoy, thinking that's it, right, you'd still have to do a lot of practice to get those songs down right from your transcriptions, yeah.

00:30:11.627 --> 00:30:22.738
Yeah, actually, during the course of the PhD, I interviewed first Charlie himself and also Buddy Green and Mike Caldwell discussing Charlie's playing style.

00:30:22.758 --> 00:30:41.478
And there were a number of passes which I had really trouble playing and but after doing the interviews I realized that all three of those move their jaw when they move to an adjacent hole so I was like maybe I should learn that and when I did then I was able to get the fast stuff down.

00:30:41.498 --> 00:30:41.538
Is

00:30:42.198 --> 00:30:45.362
that an essential skill for country harmonica than that jaw flick?

00:30:45.761 --> 00:30:46.021
Almost

00:30:46.061 --> 00:30:56.034
seems like it most people do it who play that and also I mean a lot of the Irish harmonica players use that so it's a very economic way of playing.

00:30:56.595 --> 00:30:57.737
Your jaw's still okay is it?

00:30:57.757 --> 00:30:58.759
You haven't got any injuries?

00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:01.624
No, it's been doing okay so far.

00:31:12.034 --> 00:31:12.654
Hey, everybody.

00:31:12.674 --> 00:31:26.365
You're listening to Neil Warren's Harmonica Happy Hour Podcast, sponsored by Tom Halcheck and Blue Moon Harmonicas out of Clearwater, Florida, the best in custom harmonicas, custom harmonica parts, and more.

00:31:26.866 --> 00:31:30.910
Check them out, www.bluemoonharmonicas.com.

00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:34.353
So you wrote, obviously, this article on Charlie as well.

00:31:34.373 --> 00:31:36.075
We've talked through you, interviewed him.

00:31:36.575 --> 00:31:41.779
And I think as part of this PhD, Charlie recorded with you, didn't he, on the...

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.265
on your latest album with John Henry, which is called Lucky Luck.

00:31:46.664 --> 00:31:50.568
So there's a video with you with Charlie playing.

00:31:51.150 --> 00:31:54.913
The band went over to Nashville and you recorded in a Nashville studio this album.

00:31:55.354 --> 00:31:56.375
What year did you do that one?

00:31:56.576 --> 00:32:00.900
June 23, so we released it last year in March 24.

00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:11.511
It was really an idea that grew out of this PhD project because I knew I was going to do an artistic output, record an album.

00:32:11.951 --> 00:32:14.755
At first, we thought we would do it here.

00:32:14.815 --> 00:32:16.797
We have a great studio at the school.

00:32:17.278 --> 00:32:26.867
But then the idea grew to, well, maybe, I mean, Charlie is still around playing better than ever, so why not invite him to join us?

00:32:26.988 --> 00:32:28.789
And that was, wow, yeah, that would be cool.

00:32:28.829 --> 00:32:31.212
But then maybe we should go to Nashville to record.

00:32:32.273 --> 00:32:32.693
Why not?

00:32:32.854 --> 00:32:36.417
Yeah, so I got the finances to go through with that.

00:32:36.438 --> 00:32:45.347
I came up with the idea that we should do it in the same studio where he recorded most of his stuff, which is Cinderella Sound Studios.

00:32:45.948 --> 00:32:50.913
I think at least 60% of the stuff that I have transcribed is recorded at Cinderella.

00:32:51.954 --> 00:32:59.423
So it was just a really great way to pay tribute to those recordings, to be able to go there and record.

00:32:59.962 --> 00:33:05.469
And Charlie joined us playing bass for the most part.

00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:22.048
He plays bass on five tracks, harmonica on two tracks, and the day before the recording I talked him on the phone and and he was like well this one song it might work to play some some vibes on that and i was like yeah sure why not so he's playing

00:33:22.087 --> 00:33:26.794
that as well he's this oh amazing yeah which songs does he play harmonica on

00:33:27.234 --> 00:33:31.759
he plays harmonica on uh flip that rock and the walk

00:33:32.540 --> 00:33:34.323
right and you're both playing harmonica on that are you

00:33:34.603 --> 00:34:07.559
yeah yeah we take a solo each I mean, it was an incredible experience.

00:34:08.181 --> 00:34:13.706
As I was playing harmonica, Charlie was sitting just six feet ahead of me on the couch playing bass.

00:34:14.306 --> 00:34:15.306
That was intense.

00:34:15.567 --> 00:34:17.289
What a dream fulfilled that is, Michael.

00:34:17.349 --> 00:34:28.277
First of all, you recorded in the very same studio where Charlie had done all those takes that you'd spent hours and days and weeks and months transcribing, and then to be able to play and record with him, that's a fantastic honor.

00:34:28.778 --> 00:34:32.961
I interviewed him on the podcast quite early on in the podcast series.

00:34:33.021 --> 00:34:33.603
Right, yeah.

00:34:33.702 --> 00:34:34.864
He was such a lovely guy.

00:34:34.864 --> 00:34:35.664
to speak to him.

00:34:35.684 --> 00:34:37.347
So nice and kind and giving.

00:34:37.927 --> 00:34:39.708
I'm sure he was a joy to work with.

00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:40.630
Oh, yeah.

00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:44.755
And just such an incredible pro to just come in.

00:34:44.855 --> 00:34:58.429
And it was also exciting because he is actually the guy who more or less invented the Nashville numbers system, the shorthand notation that has spread over the world now.

00:34:58.449 --> 00:35:16.577
And I got to do Nashville numbers notations of our songs So what is that Nashville number system then?

00:35:17.097 --> 00:35:27.697
It's something they developed in the 60s because Charlie had a year in music college before he came to Nashville.

00:35:28.289 --> 00:35:59.541
the choir the Jordan ears who recorded a lot with Elvis instead of writing actual notes that they were singing they wrote numbers so if they played like they wouldn't write G A B they would write 1 2 3 which represents the place in the scale and when Charlie saw that he realized that we can do that with chords so instead of writing writing G, C, G, we'll just write one, four, one.

00:35:59.561 --> 00:36:10.242
And they have a lot of neat symbols and smart solutions to really just quickly write down the chords of a song.

00:36:10.626 --> 00:36:16.550
And if you think in numbers, it's easier when you transcribe if you want to change key.

00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:23.117
And for a harmonica player, it's just perfect because if the key changes, we'll just change the diatonic harmonica.

00:36:23.157 --> 00:36:26.980
And you can still think, okay, I'm on the one chord now, I'm on the five chord.

00:36:27.681 --> 00:36:29.001
That's used very commonly in music.

00:36:29.021 --> 00:36:31.204
For example, in jazz, you've got two, five, ones, for example.

00:36:31.224 --> 00:36:32.164
Is that where that came from?

00:36:32.844 --> 00:36:34.527
You know, the jazz chords in that way?

00:36:35.266 --> 00:36:39.130
I think that type of analysis developed around the same time.

00:36:39.210 --> 00:36:40.572
But in jazz, they used...

00:36:40.592 --> 00:36:41.992
Roman numerals.

00:36:42.393 --> 00:36:42.614
Yeah.

00:36:42.974 --> 00:36:47.918
Whereas in national numbers, it's our regular Arabic numbers.

00:36:48.579 --> 00:36:53.824
So, I mean, talking through this Lucky Look album then, this is your most recent album, yeah?

00:36:54.224 --> 00:36:57.208
So you did it as part of your PhD thesis, yeah?

00:36:57.268 --> 00:37:04.474
You sort of use it as a kind of analysis and you talk about some of the songs, for example, the Nashville Yodeling Blues.

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000
...

00:37:16.226 --> 00:37:31.088
It's

00:37:31.108 --> 00:37:37.438
an instrumental, yeah, where the harmonica, that's the main part, but the other instruments solo on it as well, yeah, so tell us about that song.

00:37:37.793 --> 00:37:49.717
During this PhD project I really enjoyed playing, there's a number of songs where Charlie is playing sort of a yodel on the harmonica.

00:37:50.177 --> 00:37:54.746
He's done some Jimmy Rogers tunes and also Hank Williams where he goes...

00:37:59.905 --> 00:38:06.291
And as I was interviewing him, we were talking about those and I asked him how he played it.

00:38:06.452 --> 00:38:14.057
And he actually moves the harmonica and his jaw at the same time to cover the distance of those rather large intervals.

00:38:14.778 --> 00:38:17.822
And I realized then that, okay, that's how he does it.

00:38:17.922 --> 00:38:26.588
And since I learned corner switching from Robert von Figlio, I've always done those yodels switching the sides of corners of my mouth.

00:38:26.849 --> 00:38:34.677
And I realized that that's an even more efficient way of doing it, so maybe I should work on those yodels and see if I can push it a little further.

00:38:34.717 --> 00:38:39.460
And the Nashville yodeling blues is sort of a result of that.

00:38:39.481 --> 00:38:43.684
I was transcribing vocal yodels just to see what works on the harmonica.

00:38:43.706 --> 00:38:43.746
It

00:38:44.485 --> 00:38:46.307
really does sound like yodeling as well, doesn't it?

00:38:46.367 --> 00:38:47.469
It's quite uncanny.

00:38:47.929 --> 00:38:49.070
Yeah, it is.

00:38:49.610 --> 00:38:51.572
Yeah, so that's a really great catchy one.

00:38:51.632 --> 00:38:54.135
And so another song you did is Oklahoma.

00:38:56.398 --> 00:38:56.478

Mikael Backman interview

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