June 23, 2023

Jim Hughes interview 2

Jim Hughes joins me (again) on episode 88. Jim is a chromatic player who was last interviewed on the podcast in October 2020, back on episode 26. He is now at the grand age of 93 years young, and he shares the wisdom he has developed over many years of playing the chromatic harmonica. Jim has has become blind since the last interview and after being a life long sight reader has now had to learn how to play by ear. He shares how he has adapted to these new challenges and is finding new joy in ...

Jim Hughes joins me (again) on episode 88.

Jim is a chromatic player who was last interviewed on the podcast in October 2020, back on episode 26. He is now at the grand age of 93 years young, and he shares the wisdom he has developed over many years of playing the chromatic harmonica.

Jim has has become blind since the last interview and after being a life long sight reader has now had to learn how to play by ear. He shares how he has adapted to these new challenges and is finding new joy in playing the harmonica.

Recently Jim has unearthed some recordings he made among the thousands he recorded with the BBC, and he talks us through some of the pieces and the approaches he took on the harmonica, and his life as a session musician with the BBC.

Links:
Previous interview with Jim:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com/jim-hughes-interview/

Serenade Radio:
https://www.serenade-radio.com/

The Archivist harmonica website, from Roger Trobridge:
http://www.the-archivist.co.uk/

NHL concert 1985: (or 1983)
http://www.the-archivist.co.uk/jim-hughes-1983/

Videos:

Adam Glasser in conversation with Jim Hughes, from 2022:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU59OUY-PjE&t=464s

Carol Axford playing at NHL concert 2004:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC5t-t8L4F4

Podcast website:
https://www.harmonicahappyhour.com

Donations:
If you want to make a voluntary donation to help support the running costs of the podcast then please use this link (or visit the podcast website link above):
https://paypal.me/harmonicahappyhour?locale.x=en_GB

Spotify Playlist:
Also check out the Spotify Playlist, which contains most of the songs discussed in the podcast:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5QC6RF2VTfs4iPuasJBqwT?si=M-j3IkiISeefhR7ybm9qIQ

Podcast sponsors:
This podcast is sponsored by SEYDEL harmonicas - visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seydel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at SEYDEL HARMONICAS

Support the show

01:32 - Jim is the first person to be interviewed twice on the podcast, with the first one being episode 26 in October 2020

01:55 - Jim is now blind and stopped playing for a year as a result of that, but now he’s back at it and learning new things about the harmonica

02:28 - Hasn’t seen any noticeable impacts of losing sight on other senses

03:20 - Jim is now 93 years young

03:34 - Previously was entirely a sight reader, and how he has adapted to becoming an ear player

05:02 - Comparisons between sight reading and singing

05:24 - Is finding it difficult to learn new pieces by ear due to remembering them, but remembers all the old standards no problem

06:25 - Jim’s current practise regime now includes scales, arpeggios and improvising along with the radio

07:37 - Lots of harmonica players learn by ear first and then maybe take on sight reader after, and how Jim has adapted to that

08:49 - Has unearthed some recordings from the archives and what does Jim have in his recording archives

09:46 - Session work involves reading music you’ve never seen before, but some of the recordings Jim made were pre-practised, although still sight read

10:03 - Did a lot of work as a resident BBC musician and recorded about 6 pieces a week with pianist Harold Rich

10:17 - The search for repertoire for the chromatic

10:49 - Many of Jim’s BBC radio performances were not pure sight-reading, but prepared sight reading

11:18 - Finding pieces that work on chromatic harmonica

14:21 - Jim is composing pieces for harmonica, including one for Susie Coclough, who is also blind and has been helping Jim come to terms with the condition

15:20 - How to play legato on a chromatic harmonica

16:26 - Jim demonstrates playing smoothly on ‘You Must Remember Spring’

17:26 - Vibrato Jim adds

18:34 - How Jim teaches his latest compositions

19:44 - Jim composed an accordion inspired by a song from a French film

21:57 - Emulating an accordion playing trills

23:11 - Music gives Jim an outlet to combat the restrictions that sight loss have placed upon him

24:18 - Still teaches and is happy to teach for free these days

24:49 - Focuses on music theory in his teaching

25:48 - Never had any lessons himself

26:16 - Rhythm is the hard thing to learn

26:30 - Difficult thing about session work is when you’re not playing and counting

28:19 - Tip on playing rhythm is to write out where the beats are

29:23 - Jim has recently digitised some of his broadcasts recorded with the BBC

29:43 - When he first auditioned with the BBC he was assigned to play with pianist Harold Rich

30:35 - Jim has played with a lot of great musicians, which has really improved his playing

31:06 - Only worked with Harold Rich on radio, working with Johnny Patrick on TV

31:15 - Played live, having prepared the pieces beforehand (not sight reading)

32:23 - Happy Barefoot Boy, Henry Mancini song

33:30 - Set of dance song recordings, some written by a pianist friend of Jims

34:30 - No Limit has a train imitation, which is good to hear on chromatic (as trains often played on diatonic)

35:18 - Compositions by Gordon Jacob were for the harmonica, after being inspired by Tommy Reilly

36:10 - Harmonesque song was written by chromatic player Carol Axford, a former member of the Ivy Benson All Girl band

37:37 - The first TV performances Jim made are on these recordings, including Stranger On The Shore

38:54 - Jim was ok playing live on TV, found live radio more daunting

39:14 - Harpsichord music that Jim turned down to play on radio due to difficulty. Larry Adler also turned it down

40:42 - Jim discovered some recordings made in Israel with Dror Adler, which Jim plans to digitise

41:19 - Live recording from NHL festival concert in the mid-1980s and recording with former pupil and world champion, Ivan Richards

42:57 - NHL festival concert available on Roger Trobidge’s Archivist site

43:09 - Serenade For Solo harmonica is a Tommy Reilly song Jim played in the NHL concert, and Jim has the music available for anyone interested

45:06 - Larry Adler inspired Jim to start playing and they performed in Israel together

46:07 - Tommy Reilly had an impeccable classical style

46:26 - Playing Irish music on the chromatic and Brendan Power using special tunings to do so

47:15 - Jim plays written out jazz songs (not improvised)

48:08 - Recordings with singer Brenda Scott, with Johnny Patrick writing all the parts that Jim played, with Jim making it sound ad lib as he can swing

49:15 - How to swing

49:57 - 10 minute question

51:27 - Which chromatics Jim is currently playing

52:17 - Still has maintenance carried out on the chromatics by John Cook

52:46 - Jim compares the DM48 midi chromatic to the Millioniser from the 1980s

53:49 - Suzuki Chromatix is Jim’s favourite chromatic

54:01 - Plays 12 hole C chromatic

54:38 - Jim might make some more public performances with pianist Chris Collins

55:15 - Jim is an inspiration to still be playing age 93, and what keeps him going is the love for the music and preserving his legacy

56:20 - Jim sells James Moody’s works for chromatic, which he entered into the computer himself

WEBVTT

00:00:00.162 --> 00:00:02.525
Jim Hughes joins me again on episode 88.

00:00:03.968 --> 00:00:09.638
Jim is a chromatic player who was last interviewed on the podcast in October 2020, back on episode 26.

00:00:10.721 --> 00:00:17.774
He is now at the grand age of 93 years young, and he shares the wisdom he has developed over many years of playing the chromatic harmonica.

00:00:18.658 --> 00:00:25.086
Jim has become blind since the last interview and after being a lifelong sight reader has now had to learn how to play by ear.

00:00:25.126 --> 00:00:30.894
He shares how he has adapted to these new challenges and is finding new joy in playing the harmonica.

00:00:31.696 --> 00:00:44.192
Recently Jim has unearthed some recordings he made among the thousands he recorded with the BBC and he talks us through some of the pieces and the approaches he took on the harmonica and his life as a session musician with the BBC.

00:00:45.134 --> 00:00:47.578
This podcast is sponsored by Zeidel Harmonicas.

00:00:47.938 --> 00:00:57.323
visit the oldest harmonica factory in the world at www.seidel1847.com or on Facebook or Instagram at Seidel Harmonicas.

00:01:17.569 --> 00:01:27.242
So hello Jim Hughes again and welcome to the podcast.

00:01:27.763 --> 00:01:29.926
Good morning Neil, nice to see you again.

00:01:29.986 --> 00:01:31.808
Great to have you back.

00:01:31.828 --> 00:01:39.897
So you're the first person that I've done a repeat interview with on the podcast and the first one was back in October 2020.

00:01:39.998 --> 00:01:44.703
Wow, I can't remember that far back.

00:01:46.274 --> 00:01:48.897
So what have you been doing with yourself since then?

00:01:49.698 --> 00:01:49.980
Well,

00:01:50.561 --> 00:01:51.141
very little.

00:01:52.022 --> 00:01:54.968
I say very little, but I've been practicing a lot.

00:01:55.668 --> 00:02:00.977
The thing is, as you know, since I last spoke to you, I've become blind.

00:02:01.358 --> 00:02:03.161
So I've had to cope with that.

00:02:03.180 --> 00:02:06.787
And I didn't actually play for one year.

00:02:07.206 --> 00:02:09.009
I just didn't want to do it, you know.

00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:13.918
And then people started talking to me and said, pull yourself out of this and get going.

00:02:14.081 --> 00:02:17.784
I've started now really learning about the instrument.

00:02:17.805 --> 00:02:26.492
After 60-odd, 70-odd years, I'm learning new things about the harmonica, which is quite

00:02:26.772 --> 00:02:28.234
astounding, really.

00:02:28.735 --> 00:02:30.896
Well, I'm sorry to hear about you losing your sight.

00:02:30.917 --> 00:02:31.757
That must be terrible.

00:02:31.796 --> 00:02:36.662
But, I mean, they say that if you lose your sight, that your sense is improving over areas.

00:02:36.701 --> 00:02:39.243
Have you noticed that, maybe, about the hearing?

00:02:39.443 --> 00:02:42.847
Funnily enough, I've talked about this with Susie West.

00:02:42.926 --> 00:02:44.048
You probably know Susie West.

00:02:44.048 --> 00:03:16.364
Susie Colclough who has been blind for many years and she befriended me when I became blind and helped me actually through it and we spoke about this developing extra senses but got no evidence of it to be honest I mean I apply my my mind more especially to music I'm thinking much more I'm thinking about pitch and stuff like this but my hearing's The same smell is the same.

00:03:17.123 --> 00:03:18.145
Balance is gone.

00:03:19.045 --> 00:03:20.387
But no.

00:03:20.887 --> 00:03:22.088
So how old are you now, Jim?

00:03:23.729 --> 00:03:25.151
I'm 93.

00:03:26.012 --> 00:03:28.313
I shall be 94 at the end of this year.

00:03:28.794 --> 00:03:29.074
Wow.

00:03:29.314 --> 00:03:29.955
Congratulations.

00:03:29.995 --> 00:03:30.635
That's amazing.

00:03:30.855 --> 00:03:32.698
At least you're hearing still there, eh?

00:03:33.237 --> 00:03:34.278
Yeah, thank goodness.

00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:40.544
Well, so obviously the thing we talked about a lot in the previous interview and we'll touch on again today is sight reading.

00:03:40.564 --> 00:03:42.686
And that was a big thing that you took on.

00:03:43.266 --> 00:03:45.669
So that obviously going to be a struggle for you.

00:03:45.689 --> 00:03:47.932
Are you able to do any sort of sight reading?

00:03:47.992 --> 00:03:49.033
Is there ways around that?

00:03:49.254 --> 00:03:50.116
No, there's

00:03:50.195 --> 00:04:01.512
none at all but I'm glad that I had the experience and I mean the thing was I was quite a regular working session musician and all I had to do was sight read.

00:04:01.852 --> 00:04:09.592
My life was just going into a studio, looking at the music on the stand and just dealing with it and out, you know.

00:04:09.671 --> 00:04:11.094
It was that.

00:04:11.475 --> 00:04:13.561
It's quite different to performing.

00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:15.866
This was just like work.

00:04:15.925 --> 00:04:18.651
You sit down, you read, and you deal with the thing.

00:04:18.672 --> 00:04:19.454
I got...

00:04:19.810 --> 00:04:25.502
pretty good at it but didn't develop ear playing which is what I'm doing now

00:04:26.004 --> 00:04:33.040
yeah so tell us how you're approaching that you know and again in contrast like you say you've been sight reading for years so yeah it's been a

00:04:33.641 --> 00:04:40.071
lengthy process it's a question of developing an instinct for where the note is.

00:04:40.672 --> 00:04:42.975
See, I only play a C harmonica.

00:04:43.136 --> 00:04:45.459
I play in every key without any problem.

00:04:45.641 --> 00:04:52.752
But I know the pitch of the sound according to where I am, what position I'm at with the instrument.

00:04:53.293 --> 00:04:55.817
And I hadn't developed that too well.

00:04:56.418 --> 00:05:02.430
I just let the dots, the music guide me as I read, which just worked fine.

00:05:02.562 --> 00:05:05.425
Now I've got to think like a singer would.

00:05:05.886 --> 00:05:11.774
I mean, when you sing, you hear a note in your head and you go for it, and mostly you'll find it.

00:05:11.894 --> 00:05:13.656
You know, it's there instinctively.

00:05:13.956 --> 00:05:17.221
And this is the sort of feeling I'm getting now with the harmonica.

00:05:17.781 --> 00:05:22.048
When you're learning new pieces, are you listening to pieces and then learning those by ear?

00:05:22.528 --> 00:05:23.048
You've hit on

00:05:23.088 --> 00:05:24.391
a very good point there, Neil.

00:05:24.752 --> 00:05:29.257
I'm finding it difficult to learn new pieces because my memory...

00:05:29.730 --> 00:05:30.750
isn't so good.

00:05:31.190 --> 00:05:36.617
I can deal with all the old standards which I've known all my life because I know the tunes.

00:05:36.716 --> 00:05:41.500
I know what they are and I can play them in any key without any problem at all.

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000
.

00:06:04.610 --> 00:06:11.677
If I've got to learn something new, which I'm learning, doing all the time, I take a long time over it.

00:06:11.697 --> 00:06:14.802
I have a go at it, and then I forget the notes.

00:06:15.502 --> 00:06:16.002
There you go.

00:06:16.043 --> 00:06:17.545
That's one of the difficulties.

00:06:18.026 --> 00:06:25.134
So are you spending a lot of your time now playing existing pieces, or are you still spending time doing exercises and stuff like that?

00:06:25.935 --> 00:06:27.916
Well, I'll tell you what I do exactly.

00:06:27.937 --> 00:06:28.317
I...

00:06:28.610 --> 00:06:30.172
I practice scales.

00:06:30.992 --> 00:06:36.139
I practice arpeggios, modes, and things like that.

00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:39.384
And then I sit down, put the radio on.

00:06:40.165 --> 00:06:48.896
I listen to a program called Serenade Radio, which plays all the old standards, big band stuff, and all the great ballad singers are on.

00:06:49.175 --> 00:06:53.461
And so I sit there for hours and hours playing along with them.

00:06:53.793 --> 00:06:58.598
I accompany great artists like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett.

00:06:59.559 --> 00:07:02.802
I'm developing improvisational skills.

00:07:03.622 --> 00:07:09.187
So what do you think about playing in this way as opposed to all the years of sight reading you've spent?

00:07:09.447 --> 00:07:12.490
Are you enjoying it this way or do you think one's better than the other?

00:07:12.709 --> 00:07:14.791
It's a whole different experience.

00:07:15.173 --> 00:07:16.274
The other one was work.

00:07:16.473 --> 00:07:21.798
This is now like relearning, but I'm enjoying and I feel free to have a go at things.

00:07:21.838 --> 00:07:22.798
I'm on my own.

00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:27.247
Any mistakes I make doesn't matter, you know, and I make a lot of mistakes.

00:07:27.449 --> 00:07:30.836
I don't always 100% hit the notes that I aim

00:07:30.997 --> 00:07:31.237
for.

00:07:31.559 --> 00:07:33.583
Well, excuse your age, Jim.

00:07:33.603 --> 00:07:35.809
You're allowed a little bit of slack, I think.

00:07:36.610 --> 00:07:48.951
well no it's interesting though because lots of people obviously probably approach it from the other way they on harmonica you know they would learn by ear and then maybe start taking on the sight reading which i know you did it in your younger so it's quite interesting and

00:07:49.151 --> 00:07:49.432
yeah

00:07:49.451 --> 00:07:58.848
yeah so when you're playing are you thinking in ways almost as if you start reading like you know you're really thinking about the length of the notes and the rhythms as written or are you trying to

00:07:59.129 --> 00:08:03.463
well now it's it's sort of instinct instinct I'm playing by instinct.

00:08:03.723 --> 00:08:14.293
I'm able, like if there's a tune playing, I can pick up the harmonica and I can hit the key note immediately or sometimes I can hit whatever note is actually being played, I'll hit it.

00:08:14.733 --> 00:08:17.975
My ear directs me to the position on the instrument.

00:08:18.536 --> 00:08:20.237
No, I'm enjoying this.

00:08:20.358 --> 00:08:25.482
It's quite different to sight reading and I think I'm just sort of letting myself go, you know.

00:08:25.521 --> 00:08:26.103
Yeah.

00:08:26.483 --> 00:08:28.824
As if I was whistling or singing.

00:08:29.125 --> 00:08:30.146
It's akin to that.

00:08:30.607 --> 00:08:40.373
Well, it's very inspirational that, you know, You're still playing now and it gives us hope that a lot of people might think you might not be able to continue as you're getting older, but it's great to hear that you're still playing and enjoying it.

00:08:40.802 --> 00:08:45.846
Yeah, my brain's still working and my lungs are still working really well.

00:08:46.366 --> 00:08:51.772
So one thing we're going to talk about today is you unearthed some recordings from the archives.

00:08:52.331 --> 00:08:56.535
So tell us about, you know, some of the archives you've got of your recordings.

00:08:56.615 --> 00:09:01.519
I mean, our previous interview, we talked how you'd done thousands of sessions and you've got all this back catalysis.

00:09:01.539 --> 00:09:04.802
Do you have copies of all these previous sessions you'd done?

00:09:05.143 --> 00:09:06.183
Unfortunately, no.

00:09:06.724 --> 00:09:08.806
I mean, this is a shame.

00:09:08.985 --> 00:09:54.354
And it's only because I've actually got a relative a younger my great nephew in fact who's interested in recording and doing we've been sifting through the mountain of cassette tapes that i have that were all uh recordings of broadcasts i was doing so I should tell you something about the session work, as I say, is when you go into a studio and deal with a piece of music at sight.

00:09:54.875 --> 00:09:56.097
That's session work to me.

00:09:56.139 --> 00:10:00.429
But a lot of the stuff on that record was not sight reading.

00:10:00.470 --> 00:10:02.033
It was live, but...

00:10:02.306 --> 00:10:08.855
It had been prepared because I was doing a lot of work as a resident BBC musician.

00:10:08.894 --> 00:10:13.441
I was working and doing slots with Harold Rich, pianist.

00:10:13.500 --> 00:10:17.326
We used to record about six pieces every week.

00:10:17.647 --> 00:10:20.991
So my problem was finding repertoire.

00:10:22.253 --> 00:10:24.557
I had to look and prepare for it.

00:10:24.677 --> 00:10:28.120
So I had to look for pieces and I had a great deal of...

00:10:28.673 --> 00:10:30.937
going with a shop, a local shop.

00:10:31.578 --> 00:10:49.168
They allowed me to sift through the music, all music, and just take away whatever I wanted, and they would just sign it out to me, and I would browse through and find stuff, and then get used to it, read it, learn to play it in an effective way.

00:10:49.207 --> 00:10:52.614
That was what I was delivering on the radio.

00:10:52.865 --> 00:10:57.399
So a lot of that wasn't true session work as I see it, you know.

00:10:58.062 --> 00:10:59.807
It was play in prepared pieces.

00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:07.070
MUSIC

00:11:18.594 --> 00:11:37.955
interesting point there about you sifting through all this music I think a lot of people so clearly you're a chromatic player so but a lot of chromatic players will you know sort of struggle to find pieces that work really well on the chromatic so what did you find what were the best instruments to use and you know what sort of range along the instruments

00:11:38.475 --> 00:11:44.549
I found that Recorder music, you know, 18th century stuff was very good.

00:11:45.091 --> 00:11:52.417
Stuff written for flute, violin, for anything really, as long as it was within the range of the harmonica.

00:11:52.937 --> 00:11:55.899
I always used KC starting at middle C.

00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:59.964
So if it was within the range, I could deal with it.

00:12:00.083 --> 00:12:07.690
Otherwise, I would probably sift the notes around a bit and leap an octave here and there to encompass that.

00:12:08.071 --> 00:12:35.671
But the thing was to find these pieces was difficult it's nice i used to listen to the radio a lot and uh i'd hear tunes and i'd mark down the names i think yeah i'd like to do that like to do that but sifting through music i've discovered some real little gems beautiful stuff that you would never hear normally i mean there's loads and loads of serious music written that uh Nobody knows about.

00:12:35.691 --> 00:12:39.394
And are these pieces that particularly work well on the chromatic?

00:12:39.815 --> 00:12:41.196
Oh, yeah, they have to work well.

00:12:41.937 --> 00:12:45.059
Some are a little bit dodgy, but then you find something beautiful.

00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:51.745
Like amongst those recordings you've got, I found this gentle piece called a pastoral.

00:12:52.267 --> 00:12:53.567
Beautiful on the harmonica.

00:12:53.947 --> 00:12:55.509
I've forgotten what it was written for.

00:12:56.051 --> 00:12:58.173
I don't have any music anymore to that.

00:12:58.753 --> 00:13:03.837
But this is a typical example of what we're talking about, a gentle piece.

00:13:04.225 --> 00:13:22.066
soothing if you like mellow piece and i developed a tone to play this sort of music so

00:13:34.306 --> 00:13:51.409
Yeah, and those gentle pieces work so well in the chromatic, don't they?

00:13:51.610 --> 00:13:56.256
What about some of the technical challenges, say, of violin music where you've got slurs?

00:13:56.297 --> 00:13:59.261
How would you approach playing a slur on the chromatic?

00:13:59.714 --> 00:14:01.596
Sorry, let me just explain for a slur.

00:14:01.635 --> 00:14:08.761
So a slur on the violin is played when you play a sequence of notes with one direction of the bow.

00:14:09.081 --> 00:14:14.187
So you get a very smooth legato sound from a slur, which is a very characteristic sound of a violin.

00:14:14.206 --> 00:14:16.668
So yeah, so how would you approach that on the chromatic?

00:14:17.489 --> 00:14:17.990
Now then,

00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:20.032
I've started composing.

00:14:20.831 --> 00:14:27.038
Well, I've always composed little bits, but now I'm seriously composing stuff for the harmonica.

00:14:27.457 --> 00:14:32.485
I've written a piece, actually, for Susie which I've called Susie, believe it or not.

00:14:33.066 --> 00:14:39.378
And there's a lot of smooth legato playing required to do justice to this piece.

00:14:39.719 --> 00:14:51.662
And it means that you have to use, where you've got a succession of notes, if you like, two draw notes, three draw notes, use one breath and just move the harmonica.

00:14:52.066 --> 00:14:54.828
instead of hitting each note separately.

00:14:54.849 --> 00:14:57.130
Can I play something?

00:14:57.511 --> 00:14:58.153
Sure.

00:14:58.192 --> 00:15:01.596
Just to give you an idea, this is the introduction to this piece.

00:15:14.509 --> 00:15:16.652
So that's using one breath.

00:15:16.952 --> 00:15:24.091
Whatever you can, you use one breath for like several, blow or draw notes in a line.

00:15:24.418 --> 00:15:32.349
Where there isn't any of that, this is where real technique comes in, where you've got to make a draw to a blow note, sound smooth.

00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:35.952
And that's where the work comes in on a harmonica.

00:15:36.214 --> 00:15:37.535
Yeah, but that's a great point, isn't it?

00:15:37.576 --> 00:15:43.403
You can get, of course, great legato by, as you say, keeping the breath in one direction over a sequence of notes, can't you?

00:15:44.104 --> 00:15:44.325
Yeah.

00:15:44.684 --> 00:15:49.270
But that would call for maybe composing pieces specifically for the harmonica, wouldn't it?

00:15:49.331 --> 00:15:52.995
Because some of the violin and flute, et cetera, wouldn't necessarily do that, would they?

00:15:53.356 --> 00:15:54.298
No, that's right.

00:15:54.433 --> 00:16:00.222
But as I say, you can make a smooth progression from a blow note to a draw note.

00:16:00.683 --> 00:16:08.655
And if you get one that combines all the actions, that's a slide action, a movement of the harmonica, a change of air direction.

00:16:09.197 --> 00:16:13.945
And if you get all these together, there's a lot of coordination needed.

00:16:14.284 --> 00:16:17.230
That's where the real work comes in on a harmonica.

00:16:17.409 --> 00:16:21.914
And so how about getting that legato sound from an in-breath to an out-breath?

00:16:22.255 --> 00:16:26.179
Well, in what I just played you, there were some of that going on.

00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:27.140
I'm trying to think of...

00:16:27.181 --> 00:16:37.332
That's the sound of a piece by Michel Legrand, You Must Remember Spring.

00:16:38.894 --> 00:16:41.918
HE PLAYS LEGATO

00:17:16.609 --> 00:17:22.116
and there was a mixture of blows and draws there, but I'm sure that sounded pretty smooth,

00:17:22.156 --> 00:17:22.396
didn't it?

00:17:22.798 --> 00:17:23.137
It did.

00:17:23.278 --> 00:17:24.819
No, he's still playing excellently, Jim.

00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:25.902
Great to hear it.

00:17:26.843 --> 00:17:31.568
I noticed, though, you're definitely putting in nice touches of vibrato, you know, not overdoing it.

00:17:31.628 --> 00:17:35.834
It's just coming in nice and subtly, so maybe talk about that a little.

00:17:36.474 --> 00:17:40.859
Yeah, well, I've developed this vibrato thing on a harmonica.

00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:45.465
It's developed and developed through the years as I've played.

00:17:45.986 --> 00:17:50.471
and I play quite differently now than I did before.

00:17:50.490 --> 00:17:55.237
I used to have a wide vibrato, which I think I've mentioned to you.

00:17:56.337 --> 00:17:57.179
It was overdone.

00:17:57.219 --> 00:18:00.563
Everybody was into the throat vibrato, you know.

00:18:00.583 --> 00:18:24.167
Now I've got a, like, I use a very gentle, I always attack the note from the back of the throat, and I use a slight quiver of, like, Just a little gentle, like that, at the back of the throat.

00:18:24.347 --> 00:18:25.730
Yeah, it's sounding great.

00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:26.632
And I think you're right.

00:18:26.672 --> 00:18:30.417
There's definitely a period where vibrato was overdone on the chromatic.

00:18:30.459 --> 00:18:33.904
But yes, I think that really subtle vibrato is really nice.

00:18:34.164 --> 00:18:37.069
So you mentioned that you're writing a composition for Susie.

00:18:37.570 --> 00:18:41.458
So obviously, we've talked about you're not able to really sight read now.

00:18:41.498 --> 00:18:42.619
So how are you capturing that?

00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:43.642
How are you getting that down?

00:18:44.481 --> 00:18:45.083
I've got

00:18:45.143 --> 00:18:49.592
an arranger and we discuss the piano part of it.

00:18:49.652 --> 00:18:53.160
But these are essentially solo harmonica.

00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.465
I'm teaching Susie how to play it over the phone.

00:18:57.568 --> 00:19:02.959
And she's very bright and she is determined to be a good player.

00:19:03.019 --> 00:19:04.603
And she will be, there's no doubt.

00:19:05.003 --> 00:19:06.066
So I'm teaching her.

00:19:06.306 --> 00:19:13.401
Note by note, and how to work, how to use your breath, and how to release air mainly.

00:19:13.622 --> 00:19:20.977
This is one thing on a harmonica, as you probably know, is you get too much air in your lungs rather than fall out of breath.

00:19:21.618 --> 00:19:22.800
You have to release air.

00:19:23.266 --> 00:19:38.807
very subtly so all these things come into it so they'll say pause there release a little air you know and i'll show her how to do it and um it's working out well being asked please i hope she'll be able to perform it in in october

00:19:39.148 --> 00:19:42.973
this is at the uh the annual harmonica uk festival yeah

00:19:43.170 --> 00:19:51.461
And the other thing I had, do you know another player within the Harmonica UK band, Lena Freeman?

00:19:51.903 --> 00:19:52.844
Yeah, I know Lena, yeah.

00:19:53.184 --> 00:20:04.040
Well, she and I have a few phone calls, and she very kindly sent me some music from a film that she'd enjoyed watching, a French film, and it featured accordion.

00:20:04.622 --> 00:20:08.627
That inspired me to write a piece that sounds like an accordion.

00:20:09.368 --> 00:20:09.950
I thought, well...

00:20:10.337 --> 00:20:12.480
I'm going to dedicate this to Lena.

00:20:12.621 --> 00:20:14.864
So I said, can I call it Lena?

00:20:14.903 --> 00:20:19.288
And she said, well, I've got a much nicer middle name, Rosa.

00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:21.592
So it's called Rosa.

00:20:21.872 --> 00:20:22.133
Nice.

00:20:22.532 --> 00:20:24.455
I've completed it, sent it to her.

00:20:25.036 --> 00:20:26.498
It's a bit difficult, actually.

00:20:26.557 --> 00:20:28.580
I've got to modify the thing.

00:20:28.681 --> 00:20:31.423
But would you like to hear a bit of that?

00:20:31.664 --> 00:20:32.345
Yeah, sure, yeah.

00:20:32.806 --> 00:20:37.892
Now, the key I discovered, beautiful key to work in, is B flat minor.

00:20:38.292 --> 00:20:39.114
Beautiful key.

00:20:53.026 --> 00:20:54.251
man, this bitch slug.

00:21:43.074 --> 00:21:44.496
and so on and so on.

00:21:44.516 --> 00:21:45.517
Beautiful, beautiful.

00:21:45.596 --> 00:21:46.778
Really nice playing again, Jim.

00:21:46.979 --> 00:21:49.603
So what about the characteristics of an accordion?

00:21:49.663 --> 00:21:52.586
How are you emulating that sound on the chromatic?

00:21:53.048 --> 00:21:53.647
Well, I'm

00:21:54.249 --> 00:22:05.263
just doing it as good as I can, but I know when accordionists play this music, they do these little trills, and there's a bit in it that

00:22:05.304 --> 00:22:06.526
goes...

00:22:22.817 --> 00:22:23.299
It's just

00:22:23.942 --> 00:22:26.474
messing around, really, with it within that scale.

00:22:26.958 --> 00:22:27.740
No, it sounds great.

00:22:28.163 --> 00:22:31.961
Well, Susie and Rosa are very lucky to have songs composed for them.

00:22:32.513 --> 00:22:39.660
Yeah, well, I'm hoping that they'll both give a first performance in the same Harmonica Fest in October.

00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:40.500
That'd be nice.

00:22:40.701 --> 00:22:42.423
Well, it's out on the podcast now, Jim.

00:22:42.442 --> 00:22:43.463
They're going to have to do it now.

00:22:46.705 --> 00:22:47.606
I'll make sure of it.

00:22:47.967 --> 00:22:48.748
I'll contact them.

00:22:49.328 --> 00:22:50.249
So, yes, beautiful.

00:22:50.288 --> 00:22:56.674
And so you're picking these pieces up just from ear, from the recording, well, this piece from ear, from this film music, are you?

00:22:56.875 --> 00:22:58.916
Yeah, well, I just get

00:22:59.037 --> 00:23:02.480
an inspiration for a type of song.

00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:26.240
of notes and then I start messing about and the strange thing is when I first started doing this I got a little theme going and then my mind just blocked off nothing and I thought I just couldn't what they would call I suppose a writer's block and now I can't stop the thoughts flowing in.

00:23:26.260 --> 00:23:30.967
I lie in bed and I get permutations and notes going through my head.

00:23:32.048 --> 00:23:33.269
It's crazy, you know.

00:23:33.830 --> 00:23:34.251
That's good.

00:23:34.271 --> 00:23:37.015
That's the mental representation of the music, eh?

00:23:37.055 --> 00:23:38.877
That's a very powerful thing.

00:23:39.397 --> 00:23:42.721
Yeah, I'm glad that I've got this at least, you know.

00:23:43.282 --> 00:23:46.027
There's very little I can do with sight loss.

00:23:46.086 --> 00:23:47.428
It's so restrictive.

00:23:47.989 --> 00:23:48.789
It's unbelievable.

00:23:49.090 --> 00:23:51.153
Does it leave you very housebound, I

00:23:51.173 --> 00:23:51.594
assume?

00:23:52.001 --> 00:23:53.824
I am her spouse, that's the problem.

00:23:54.404 --> 00:24:00.851
I have a wonderful carer in the shape of my daughter-in-law, Suzanne, who is married to my youngest son.

00:24:01.311 --> 00:24:12.203
She spends four hours a day here, keeps the house clean and tidy, cooks me a meal, does the washing and ironing and even does the garden.

00:24:12.763 --> 00:24:14.846
So she's looking after me so well, you know.

00:24:15.287 --> 00:24:16.048
Sounds like an angel.

00:24:16.468 --> 00:24:17.148
Very lucky.

00:24:17.308 --> 00:24:18.269
Very lucky, yeah.

00:24:18.402 --> 00:24:24.511
So you're still doing some teaching then over the phone, as you say, with Susan and Lena, yeah?

00:24:24.912 --> 00:24:24.991
I

00:24:25.031 --> 00:24:28.037
love teaching, and I will teach anybody.

00:24:28.057 --> 00:24:30.220
I don't charge anymore.

00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:31.521
I teach free of charge.

00:24:32.123 --> 00:24:36.130
So anybody that's got the determination, I will help.

00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:38.973
They've only got to contact me, you know?

00:24:39.329 --> 00:24:40.991
That's what I'm doing now, that-wise.

00:24:41.332 --> 00:24:42.073
I like teaching.

00:24:42.814 --> 00:24:48.740
But the pupil has to be determined and really want to do

00:24:48.820 --> 00:24:48.882
it.

00:24:49.622 --> 00:24:54.208
Obviously, a lot of other instruments have formal teaching and there's a big history of teaching.

00:24:54.949 --> 00:24:58.933
How do you approach teaching the chromatic in the best way you can?

00:24:59.394 --> 00:25:02.337
Well, it's all tied in with music theory.

00:25:02.657 --> 00:25:07.885
So we talk about music and then apply the playing to the music.

00:25:08.547 --> 00:25:17.141
We talk about scales and it's really, the more music theory you know, the better musician you'll be.

00:25:17.201 --> 00:25:23.445
You've got to know your scales and you've got to learn how music is constructed.

00:25:23.486 --> 00:25:25.288
There's so much to learn.

00:25:25.347 --> 00:25:26.369
You never stop learning.

00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:26.990
Never.

00:25:28.092 --> 00:25:29.753
But I tie it all in with that.

00:25:29.993 --> 00:25:33.078
And I used to do that in with the written notes.

00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:44.493
You see, I would write exercises and they were all logical, you know, starting from one note and then explain how a major scale is formed and go on.

00:25:45.089 --> 00:25:48.096
in the way that I think every instrument is being taught.

00:25:48.778 --> 00:25:50.000
But I've never had a lesson

00:25:50.201 --> 00:25:50.642
myself.

00:25:51.183 --> 00:25:55.854
So do you apply patterns to scales and things like that, that sort of approach to the scales?

00:25:56.434 --> 00:26:02.509
Yeah, we start with the scale of C and then we, you know, refer to the circle of C.

00:26:02.689 --> 00:26:04.534
And we just progress...

00:26:04.897 --> 00:26:06.378
One thing leads to another.

00:26:06.439 --> 00:26:15.406
It's hard to say exactly, but it's a question of gradually learning notes, learning the shape of the note and then the value of the note time-wise.

00:26:15.567 --> 00:26:21.071
And the hard thing to learn is rhythm, to teach, to get that right.

00:26:21.112 --> 00:26:30.420
And if a person has not got a natural rhythmic feel, they're never going to be a musician, which leads me to a point which I didn't mention with session work.

00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.864
The hard thing about session work is not when you're playing, it's when you're not playing.

00:26:34.864 --> 00:26:36.705
and counting through the rest.

00:26:36.965 --> 00:26:39.067
And that is harder than playing.

00:26:39.469 --> 00:26:46.415
And sometimes, you know, if it's a big orchestral thing, you'll be counting and counting and counting for a long time.

00:26:46.435 --> 00:26:49.599
And you have to be absolutely bang on all the time.

00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:51.821
You just set your mind like a clock.

00:26:52.202 --> 00:26:53.604
That is the hard thing.

00:26:53.763 --> 00:26:56.166
Have you got any tips to help with the rhythm?

00:26:56.207 --> 00:26:59.891
Is it a case of, you know, practicing different rhythms and getting used to them?

00:27:00.411 --> 00:27:04.536
Yeah, let's start off with one note, like a semi-breve.

00:27:04.816 --> 00:27:05.737
a whole note.

00:27:06.198 --> 00:27:07.920
See, notes have two names.

00:27:08.019 --> 00:27:11.704
Again, you've got the English name and you've got the American name.

00:27:11.904 --> 00:27:14.127
Whole note, semi-breed, four beats.

00:27:14.808 --> 00:27:15.851
So I explain all that.

00:27:15.891 --> 00:27:29.489
We go through that rhythm and then we add in minim or half note and then add in the crotchet or quarter note and go on from there and give demonstrations of how it goes, how to count.

00:27:30.029 --> 00:27:33.153
This is the hard thing, the rhythmic quality of music.

00:27:33.377 --> 00:27:36.240
When I did the session work, I used to concentrate more.

00:27:36.601 --> 00:27:37.781
I didn't worry about the notes.

00:27:37.883 --> 00:27:40.644
I knew that I would, whatever note I looked at, I would hit it.

00:27:41.006 --> 00:27:43.067
But I looked at the rhythmic patterns.

00:27:43.748 --> 00:27:51.916
And especially when I was working with Johnny Patrick, I learned to read jazz phrases, triplets over the bar and things like this.

00:27:51.957 --> 00:27:54.199
Anyway, it's all experience, Neil.

00:27:54.499 --> 00:28:01.125
The more you do it, the better you get, eh?

00:28:01.145 --> 00:28:01.246
MUSIC

00:28:15.842 --> 00:28:17.144
I'll tell you, I had a good tip.

00:28:17.183 --> 00:28:28.721
When I started working with Johnny Patrick, all the notes were written down, as I say, in these jazz phrases, which are unusual to look at at first while you're inexperienced.

00:28:28.941 --> 00:28:34.930
But I spoke to the drummer, Lionel Rubin, and we were talking about playing rhythms properly.

00:28:34.970 --> 00:28:37.814
And he said, I'm going to give you a tip now.

00:28:38.241 --> 00:28:39.385
He said, this will help you.

00:28:39.405 --> 00:28:40.651
And it did help me.

00:28:41.073 --> 00:28:42.859
And he said, mark in the beats.

00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.653
If you've got four beats in a bar, mark in where the beat is.

00:28:46.849 --> 00:28:58.382
is beat one, whether it's a rest on that beat or anything, or you might be in the middle of a noting, beat one, you make a mark on top of them, beat two, three, and four.

00:28:58.823 --> 00:29:06.111
And you see how the notes lie in relation to what you've marked, those four strokes above the bar.

00:29:06.730 --> 00:29:14.539
And after that, I noticed even real great musicians were doing that exactly on session work.

00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.321
They were marking in the beats.

00:29:16.801 --> 00:29:17.086
And

00:29:17.391 --> 00:29:18.670
I gave him an anchor.

00:29:19.074 --> 00:29:21.715
So that was a very useful tip.

00:29:21.895 --> 00:29:22.416
Yeah, great.

00:29:22.737 --> 00:29:28.122
So let's get in now to one of the recordings that you've unearthed recently.

00:29:28.162 --> 00:29:31.625
This is called Selective Broadcasts of Jim Hughes.

00:29:31.664 --> 00:29:37.990
So this is a lot of the work that you've done with Harold Rich on piano, as well as some other band stuff.

00:29:38.029 --> 00:29:39.692
So tell us about this.

00:29:39.711 --> 00:29:41.614
When did you play with Harold Rich?

00:29:41.794 --> 00:29:43.174
What sort of time frame?

00:29:43.595 --> 00:29:57.403
When I auditioned for the BBC, one of the first things they did was set me up with Harold, who as a resident BBC pianist and it was Harold and Jim or very twee, Harold and Jimmy.

00:29:59.045 --> 00:30:00.445
Now we have Harold and Jimmy.

00:30:01.186 --> 00:30:03.528
And we did a regular thing.

00:30:04.028 --> 00:30:09.713
We used to work for about a couple of years, Harold on the piano, Jim on the harmonica.

00:30:10.015 --> 00:30:12.076
And we recorded regularly.

00:30:12.115 --> 00:30:15.859
And this is where I had to find the repertoire to fit in with that.

00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.784
And when you've got to find new tunes all the time, you know, it's really difficult.

00:30:21.243 --> 00:30:24.928
So, I mean, there's something about that combination of the chromatic and piano, isn't it?

00:30:24.948 --> 00:30:28.971
I think they're both quite gentle instruments and they go so well together don't they?

00:30:29.413 --> 00:30:50.576
Yeah and with Harold he's a wonderful accompanist he's just beautiful you know I've been spoiled by having the opportunity to work with great musicians and this is how I've developed as a musician is working with good musicians and the BBC have given me that opportunity

00:30:51.038 --> 00:30:54.061
So how did Harold like playing with a chromatic harmonica player?

00:30:54.594 --> 00:30:55.075
No, he

00:30:55.115 --> 00:30:56.576
was fine about it.

00:30:56.856 --> 00:30:57.597
Yeah, he liked it.

00:30:57.637 --> 00:31:01.083
We did a lot of stuff, a hell of a lot of stuff.

00:31:01.423 --> 00:31:05.469
Yeah, so you did lots of TV appearances and radio appearances together?

00:31:05.489 --> 00:31:10.695
No, I never worked with Harold on TV, but I did work with Johnny Patrick on TV.

00:31:10.915 --> 00:31:11.096
Yeah.

00:31:11.237 --> 00:31:13.980
Were these generally live performances or were they pre-recorded?

00:31:14.381 --> 00:31:15.643
Oh, the ones you've got there

00:31:15.682 --> 00:31:21.130
were live performances, but they weren't, as I said before, that wasn't sight reading.

00:31:21.391 --> 00:31:23.433
That was prepared pieces.

00:31:23.874 --> 00:31:29.369
So you'd practiced them beforehand, but were you still reading them as you played them or did you have them committed to memory?

00:31:29.671 --> 00:31:30.634
Yes, I was.

00:31:30.954 --> 00:31:31.938
No, I didn't memorize.

00:31:32.057 --> 00:31:32.920
I still read them.

00:31:33.161 --> 00:31:33.342
Yeah.

00:31:33.461 --> 00:31:36.069
But I was familiar with what I was playing.

00:31:36.450 --> 00:31:46.102
Great, and so most of these clips then were on radio, and there's great introductions in the old style of BBC Queen's English on quite a few of these recordings you've kept on, which are great.

00:31:46.563 --> 00:31:51.348
The third piece in this group, played by James Hughes and Harold Rich, has vaguely athletic connotations.

00:31:51.910 --> 00:31:58.057
It's by another notable harmonica and piano duo, Tommy Riley and James Moody, and it's called Golden Girl.

00:32:01.442 --> 00:32:01.662
GOLDEN GIRL

00:32:21.442 --> 00:32:23.945
So let's talk through a couple of the pieces then.

00:32:23.986 --> 00:32:26.910
Happy Barefoot Boy, which is a Henry Mancini song.

00:32:27.310 --> 00:32:28.772
That's a little gem of a tune.

00:32:29.134 --> 00:32:30.134

Jim Hughes interview 2

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